Difficult situation

[Lifebythesea2323]

Hi
Regular poster posting under another name for confidentiality.
Situation. Apologies long post!
I look after two boys one eighteen months.
On Friday the oldest boy became unwell in my care. Vomited at midday.
Large projectile type vomit. He then continued to vomit multiple times. No temperature.

After the second vomit I contacted the mother to inform her. She asked to speak to son. He was crying and asking for her to come home. She told him she would. She eventually came home six hours later.
It was not a problem for me if she came home or not, I am happy to look after sick child. I am an ex nurse so well able to cope.

She then continued to ring with requests for example not to give any food (of course I knew that), and later to remove her other son from the room. She also asked other relatives to ring me. The younger child had been in the room when vomiting occurred so in my view had already been exposed. I had cleaned everywhere with anitiseptic and aired room too. I did as she said; although I felt it was my call to decide where the children were. The youngest is too young to leave for long in other rooms if I need to deal with older child vomiting. Older child was crying for mum and frightened by vomiting.
Anyway an hour and half after not vomiting and having tolerated fluids the little boy wanted to eat. I said no best to stick to fluids. We had squash and water. Child had a jelly he wanted, I said no. Anyway mum rang again, she said no he couldn't have the jelly, I reminded her jelly is semi liquid but no, she was coming home. Anyway another two hours passed. Now five hours from eating and over three from vomiting. The little boy is asking for jelly. So I gave him some couple of spoonfuls, no vomit, half an hour later repeated no vomit. Mum then arrived home.
Child happy now and running around the room. Younger child had gone to bed. Mother seemed happy.
However she rang the next day (day off) annoyed I hadn't followed her orders regarding the jelly. I asked her what the problem was with giving jelly. She said no problem with jelly, problem you not following orders. Well I told her she wasn't there and I made the decision based on her child's needs. I didn't do it to annoy her she clearly thinks I did.
She then mentioned I hadn't followed other orders previously. I was unaware of this as try to follow her book to the letter.
She then raised an incident where I hadn't given paracetamol at bedtime. However the little boy was not ill/no temperature so I had assumed she didn't want me to give. An in any case I am required by insurance to have written order.
Thought please....

But nannies have written contracts with agencies dont they? Dont know if employers do?
Agree that agencies dont always know the answer but it is their job to find out. Not sure how much use they are when things go wrong. They mediate presumably. And If they decided that an employer is in the wrong and not the nanny, presumably they might employ the nanny elsewhere? Amd if they didnt end up agreeing with the employer, the agency itself could and would provide a good reference?

So. Ofsted arent really in a picture as regeards a nanny, as they only sort of watch?

But insurance is a different matter. A nanny needs to know what is required and necessary, insurance wise.

Have I got that right?

That nanny insurance statement is a problem isnt it? What happens if a nanny cannot contact an employer? And often in these sort of situations, they would need to be contacted in a hurry. Would a nanny be able to take a child to a Gp? Or a&e? Presumably yes?

No, most agencies don't employ the nanny. So they have absolutely nothing to do with the day to day job a nanny dies. If it all falls apart then employer or nanny could contact the agency as an independent third party but in general they are a recruitment mechanism, not the employer. There are very few exceptions to that.

An agency may vouch for a nanny, but that only really works if the next parent is already going through them... They can't give a reference on how the nanny is at their job, just confirm the nanny's story.

It is therefore up to the employer or nanny to agree what happens about illness and GP. A&E will usually trat regardless but a GP might not accept a nanny accompanying a child, particularly for things like vaccinations, unless they have proof he nanny is allowed to be there.

Most insurers accept that a nanny is there to take decisions like putting on sunscreen, giving calpol and teething remedies etc so a blanket consent form will suffice. That way a parent can say 'give calpol today' or a nanny can ring up and say 'Little johnny has a temp so I've given calpol', or if the nanny can't reach the parent they can give calpol and then say that evening 'little johnny had a temp so I gave calpol at 10am and 5pm'.

OFSTED watch, yes, but they have the right to bar a nanny from the register if they discover bad practice, so if a nanny cannot register with OFSTED that should be ringing alarm bells.

Hi trish
Agencies:- nannies do not have contracts with agencies. The agency interview the nanny, and check their certificates and can order a DBS certificate (new CRB). They act as an introduction for the parents, and will 'filter' candidates so-to-speak. The nanny has a contract with the family she works for.
If a job was new first few weeks they might mediate but only because they don't want to loose their fee if nanny doesn't stay required introductory time. After a nanny has been in a job several months they wouldn't get involved.
This job was not through an agency. I also work for a friend of the mother.
Ofsted:- some nannies are not Ofsted registered. To use child vouchers a nanny must be Ofsted Registered. I only became Ofsted registered for this family to use vouchers there is no benefit for me. Ofsted just charge to check the nanny's childcare qualification, DBS and first aid certificate. But in joining their register I have to sign to say I will do X things. Like point out health and safety issues in the home. This is difficult when you are an employee to be honest and your employer is super sensitive. Other things like not leaving the children alone are common sense and you would of course do anyway.

trish I'm wondering whether you have a specific agency in mind which follows the business model where the nanny is employed? They do exist but are rare. If you want to PM with a more specific query I'll do my best to help.

Oh agencies.... now there is another frustration I can do without... I've never used one but heard and read plenty of stories to put me off for life.

I'm relieved I'm not ofsted reg lol

And have in contract regarding permission for medicine and suncream

Nom, perhaps I do have a specific agency in mind. Perhaps it works differently to others? No worries. There isnt a problem yet, hope there wont be. If there is, I will get to see who is working for who, and how it all knits together.
Glad you have another job to go to op. A big plus.

Well generally the most basic relationship is nanny-employer. They have a contract between the two of them and that's that. Nanny also has a realationship with their insurer and possibly OFSTED.

An introduction agency brings nanny and parent together. They may advise on OFSTED registration and the like and mediate if things go wrong but they can equally wash their hands of the entire situation, having been a very expensive screening service.

An employment agency is an intermediary for the parent and nanny. So parent pays agency for x hours, agency finds, sends and pays nanny. Nanny is still registered separately with OFSTED but may either get their insurance separately (this is definitely the case with 2 employment agencies) or via the agency's umbrella policy (and there's definitely one that does this). In the latter case I'd expect the contract you have with the agency, and the one agency has with the nanny, covers medication and permission. As to the former, I don't know how that would work.

In all cases where the agency is the employer and the parent is the client, the agency would be able to redeploy the nanny without a need for references. They would, as the employer, be the one giving out a new reference. One such agency would also be able to shift the nanny out of nannying into another setting operated under the same umbrella. One hopes they'd deal with any complaint responsibly.

The relationship on whose say goes is more complex. I suspect in that case it would operate more of a nursery style scenario where nanny is assigned a line manager and if they have concerns they would talk it over with them, so a reasonable instruction would be followed but something like giving calpol when not indicated the nanny would ask the agency and follow their instructions, and you as the agency's client would take up their employee's conduct with them. If that makes sense. Just as a nursery nurse would defer to a room leader who might consult the manager if in doubt, and if you had a problem you'd take it up with the room leader or the manager.

If you're not clear on who is working for who, and I'm guessing you're the parent in this scenario, it might be worth asking for some more detail about the setup and checking the terms you have with the agency.

These kind of agencies provide a very interesting perspective on childminder agencies and how they might develop, and to what extend the relationship between CM and parents could be affected by a third party. It may be that more nanny agencies shift from an introduction role to an employment service, but I think there will always be room for parents to employ a nanny privately and it's likely to remain the more popular option for the foreseeable future.

What does an agency have to do with anything?
Your employer told you not to give your child anything solid. You gave her something solid against her orders and she was cross and came home.
She sounds very over protective and angsty, but that's how she wants to run things and she is your employer.
She'll probably relax over time - but you have to respect her wishes or leave.

Thanks for that Nom. I didnt realise that different nanny agencies operated differently to each other. I think it is one of the ones like you mentioned.

But yes, Karoleann, this doesnt have much to do with the op directly.

I think I was sort of saying in a roundabout way, that if the nanny went with an agency at some point, and the op really hadnt done much wrong, that the agency would realise this, and try and help her get a new placement, as her work employment record would still be good. And they could vouch for her.

Though I now see that the agenices dont all work in the same way.

Depends on the agency. Most of my local agencies would def support the nanny depending on what the problem was

Saying that obv if the nanny did something terrible like not using car seats etc they would side with the family

Obv as nannies we want to respect and follow our employers rules but to what extent if not good for the child. Ie if child was having s&d and parent said nothing to eat or drink - fine - but as a nanny we can't not give a child anything all day as will dehydrate - the op used her own judgement and common sense and training as a nurse

So basically it comes down to whether the mb trusts the nanny and her judgement in situations when they are not there and seems ops mb doesn't :(

I don't see anything wrong with this from your end.
You have carried out your responsibilities as a professional nanny.