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Difficult situation

63 replies

Lifebythesea2323 · 21/10/2013 17:21

Hi
Regular poster posting under another name for confidentiality.
Situation. Apologies long post!
I look after two boys one eighteen months.
On Friday the oldest boy became unwell in my care. Vomited at midday.
Large projectile type vomit. He then continued to vomit multiple times. No temperature.

After the second vomit I contacted the mother to inform her. She asked to speak to son. He was crying and asking for her to come home. She told him she would. She eventually came home six hours later.
It was not a problem for me if she came home or not, I am happy to look after sick child. I am an ex nurse so well able to cope.

She then continued to ring with requests for example not to give any food (of course I knew that), and later to remove her other son from the room. She also asked other relatives to ring me. The younger child had been in the room when vomiting occurred so in my view had already been exposed. I had cleaned everywhere with anitiseptic and aired room too. I did as she said; although I felt it was my call to decide where the children were. The youngest is too young to leave for long in other rooms if I need to deal with older child vomiting. Older child was crying for mum and frightened by vomiting.
Anyway an hour and half after not vomiting and having tolerated fluids the little boy wanted to eat. I said no best to stick to fluids. We had squash and water. Child had a jelly he wanted, I said no. Anyway mum rang again, she said no he couldn't have the jelly, I reminded her jelly is semi liquid but no, she was coming home. Anyway another two hours passed. Now five hours from eating and over three from vomiting. The little boy is asking for jelly. So I gave him some couple of spoonfuls, no vomit, half an hour later repeated no vomit. Mum then arrived home.
Child happy now and running around the room. Younger child had gone to bed. Mother seemed happy.
However she rang the next day (day off) annoyed I hadn't followed her orders regarding the jelly. I asked her what the problem was with giving jelly. She said no problem with jelly, problem you not following orders. Well I told her she wasn't there and I made the decision based on her child's needs. I didn't do it to annoy her she clearly thinks I did.
She then mentioned I hadn't followed other orders previously. I was unaware of this as try to follow her book to the letter.
She then raised an incident where I hadn't given paracetamol at bedtime. However the little boy was not ill/no temperature so I had assumed she didn't want me to give. An in any case I am required by insurance to have written order.
Thought please....

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trish5000 · 21/10/2013 18:52

This is tough isnt it. She sounds very fussy. She will have trouble getting any nanny to last as long as you have.

But on the other hand I am left thinking that she asked you not to feed her poorly child and you did. Whereas, you could have rung her up again?

And does she relalise that you couldnt administer the parecetamol without her written consent?

Agree with Nom that it would be best to have a talk with her so that hopefully she gives you a good reference for whenever you might need it in the future.

Blondeshavemorefun · 21/10/2013 19:37

she sounds a nightmare, a4 sheet every day you work there Hmm

to make sure life easier you should have a letter saying you can put on suncream and prescribe/give calpol etc if you feel the need - i have it written in my contract that employer gives me permission and she trusts my judgement of the situation

regards jelly, he had been very sick and if giving jelly will help rehydrate then thats good, tbh if hadnt been sick for 5hrs i probably would have given a banana and gone from there

sounds to me that she doesnt trust you, even worse if you are an ex nurse

telling an older child she is coming home soon and not arriving for 6hrs is unfait

tbh employing a nanny means you will deal with sick children and the parents dont need to come home - compared to a cm/nursery

removing younger child from room will not stop child from getting sick - more then likely a bug and would have been exposed anyway

if one day a week do you really need a ref, if she is going to be difficult anal about the situation

FlorenceMattell · 21/10/2013 20:04

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FlorenceMattell · 21/10/2013 20:06

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Strix · 21/10/2013 20:06

It sounds to me like there have been a few occassions where mum felt you didn't do as she instructed. And, as a result, she is digging her heels in (yes, overreacting) here as a result. I think you were wrong to give the jelly because she specifically asked you not to. But, again, she overreacted to the situation. So, plenty of blame to go around here.

I believe there is more to this story than is typed on this thread.

If I left my child with a nanny, rang them and asked them to give paracetemol, and nanny then refused citing ofsted or insurance I would be mighty unhappy with the nanny for this response. In fact she would be at real risk of dismissal on the grounds of insubordination. My nanny (when I had one) works for me, and I expect her to act like it. Now, of course, I avoid this situation by writing into my contract that giving medicine is not only allowed, but is in fact her duty. If she can inform me first she should. But if in her view waiting to get ahold of me is not in the interest of the child she should adminster medicine and then tell me. My contract also specifies which hospital she can take the children to... and so does my childminder contract.

Now if I asked the nanny to leave the baby unattended in the street then that would be a different matter. But, not giving this child jelly, was not a lack of sensible judgement. It was a reasonable course of action. Yours was also reasonable. But you work for her, and you lost sight of that relationaship when you chose to give him jelly anyway.

So, in short, I do think you were in the wrong. But, I also think she is being unreasonable.

Ihavethislittlesister · 21/10/2013 20:17

Maybe she is an emetophobe? Hence needing control over what said child ate after being sick and oddness over younger child being removed from room

A4 sheet is bit much I must say

Blondeshavemorefun · 21/10/2013 20:17

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butterfliesinmytummy · 21/10/2013 20:18

My dd2 aged 5 was vomiting on Friday. She had no fever, didn't want banana, dry toast, plain rice etc. We went through the whole list of bland foods but the only thing she could face was jelly so she had some. A doctor once told me that any hydration is better than none for d&v as long as it's not acidic or fruit / dairy that will irritate the stomach. Sometimes jelly just works.....

You prob shouldn't have given the jelly as that went against her micro instructions, but I think she was unreasonable to issue such instructions when she wasn't physically able to be in the room and judge for herself what her child needed at the time.

FlorenceMattell · 21/10/2013 20:22

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FlorenceMattell · 21/10/2013 20:25

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Strix · 21/10/2013 20:55

Actually, I have an au pair now and we have a great relationship. I love her to bits. I do not treat her as you described. Likewise, she would never intentionally make her own call on a situation knowing it was contrary to my wishes. This is a good fit for us.

I think part of your problem is that you are overqualified for the role your employer wants you to fill. She wants someone to follwo her instruction when and if she chooses to give it. She is well within her rights to want this. But, you have an education and experience that naturally leads you to wanting a bit more from your career.

I think moving on is the right thing for you to do because the two of you will never be a good fit. And I also think she hasn't been terribly nice to you and probably deserved the resignation she got.

As an employer I could care less about ofsted and what they require of you. I'm also not terribly fussed about the requirements of your insurance company. I would try to be reasonable. But a flat out refusal to follow my instruction would not be welcome. This is but one reason I am staunchly opposed to ofted registration for nannies. I simply don't see that they bring any value to the situation.

Anyway, I would give my nanny step by step instructions. I try to back off and let her do her job when I am at work. That is sometime difficult for parents (and your boss clearly has not got to grip with it) but I think if you can't do that that nanny employment is not for you.

Strix · 21/10/2013 20:57

oops...

Anyway, I would not give my nanny step by step instructions

FlorenceMattell · 21/10/2013 21:07

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NomDeClavier · 21/10/2013 21:27

Actually strix OFSTED specifically don't include home childcarers precisely because (presumably) they know it's outside their remit to meddle with a parent who wants their child given medication.

"The Childcare Register
Providers on the Childcare Register, apart from home childcarers, must keep a written record of any medicine given to a child for whom childcare is provided. This includes:
the details of the product and the date you gave it;
the name of the person who gave the medicine and the circumstances; and
a record of the parents’ permission — or a carer, if the parent has identified another person.
There is no guidance relating to whether the medication is prescribed or not as long as you keep a written record."

From [[http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-giving-medication-children-registered-childcare Giving medication to children in registered childcare
January 2013 No 080290]]

So those on the Early Years register can only give prescribed medication or over the counter with written permission, those on the Childcare register don't have any rules about prescriptions but do need permission, not specifically written, and Home Childcarers (aka nannies) don't have any rules.

The insurance issue is entirely separate and I do see why they do it, but that isn't OFSTED.

Lifebythesea2323 · 22/10/2013 10:13

Florencemattell thankyou for removing your posts.

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Strix · 22/10/2013 11:24

NDC,

I'm not the one who raised the point that ofsted would object to medicine being given. So I am not clear why you have addressed me.

My point is that the employer employee relationship is between the nanny and the parent(s), and nothing to do with Ofsted. So as the employer, I'm obliged to cater to them.

Also, it is worth pointing out that Ofsted absolutely is in the habit of getting involved in issues which actually are not within their remit. So, they may well choose to meddle on the medicine administration.

Ofsted, as you can ready from previous threads, was horrid to my lovely childminder. Truly horrid. I don't like them. They have cause me far more anguish than help when it comes to childcare. And I accept that the severity of views I have put forward here are probably influenced by that experience.

As it happens, I no longer employ a nanny. But, if I did, I wouldn't let Ofsted in my home for any inspections of any kind.

Leopoldina · 22/10/2013 11:29

on the Calpol point, if I was told by my nanny that she didn't give a sick child medicine because Ofsted (computer) says no, I'd be of the opinion she couldn't think for herself. I'd be very annoyed.
However it seems that this employer doesn't want a nanny to think for herself and has created an environment which doesn't encourage initiative & in fact positively stifles it. She sounds like a good old fashioned control freak, who is not making her life any easier whatsoever by having a nanny.

NomDeClavier · 22/10/2013 11:42

Actually I was supporting you that the nanny/employer relationship is outside their sphere of influence Hmm. I was pointing out that not following instructions about medication idue to OFSTED was a misunderstanding on the nanny's part and giving her the correct info, although down thread I said some inspectors misinterpret that because they forget the exemption for the voluntary part of the childcare register. I know you have a lot of beef with OFSTED and I remember why, but if the only reason you opposed registration for nannies is because you think it would stop your employee following your instructions then you'd be wrong.

OFSTED are being relatively careful about the nanny/employer relationship because they have no legal mandate for nannies. It's voluntary. They're absolute bastards to nurseries and CMs because the law says they can be, but if you employed a nanny then even if nanny were registered you can refuse to have them in your home for inspections and you can ask your nanny to do pretty much whatever you like and OFSTED can't say a thing. If an inspector tries to meddle with a nanny administering medication then you can legitimately get them in a whole world of trouble.

Insurance is a completely separate issue and I do think you're being a bit unreasonable if you wouldn't respect those requirements because it is ultimately there to ensure the future of your DC if something happens while nanny is on duty. Given that you cover medication in the contract that would probably suffice, though, so it's almost a non-issue - it just means any nanny would have to be aware of the terms of their cover and make sure you were okay with it, which would be good practice anyway.

But re: OFSTED and the nanny/employer relationship you're actually right, and not just morally but legally.

Lifebythesea2323 · 22/10/2013 11:44

Hi Leopoldina

Can I make clear I was reluctant to give calpol to a child who did not have a temperature or feel unwell. I didn't give as I wasn't sure there was a medical reason the parent had not indicated one but wanted it given as routine.
I would give calpol to a sick child with a temperature. I would also give calpol if the parent gave me written consent with a clear medical reason indicated.

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Lifebythesea2323 · 22/10/2013 11:48

Hi NomDeClavier you are right Ofsted don't insist on written request for non prescribed medicines but my insurance does. I had found a 2011 Ofsted document that now seems out of date.
However in a court of law a judge may decide that a competent nanny should be aware of current best practice and be following that.

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NomDeClavier · 22/10/2013 12:01

You may not get very far in court without insurance covering your legal fees though, life....

I don't know whether all insurers require written permission for administration of medication. I can fully understand why they might, I suspect all require permission of some kind although they may accept it being given retroactively.

I know previously OFSTED were overstepping their bounds so it doesn't surprise me that you were about confused what OFSTED do (can) require. Most people are. I can be sometimes and it's part of my job not to be! Plus they're utterly crap at telling people they have updated their guidance, including their own inspectors.

trish5000 · 22/10/2013 12:02

I am confused as heck now.

I have a vested interest in this matter but not saying how.

Is it all confusing and that is why some nannies prefer to have been recommended by an agency. So then an agency can sort it all out?

Whereas if you are non agency, it all gets very confusing as regards ofsted and insurance?

Strix · 22/10/2013 12:12

Well, if I employy someone to do a job (e.g. nanny) I have to take on all the legal responsibilities of salary, tax, holiday, employment rights, etc. In return, I expect them to answer to me. I'm not interested in a three way contract with ofsted, or even the insurance company. I'm happy to work with the nanny to cover all foreseeable eventualities by documenting a variety of things and putting my signature on it. But, I'm not interested in whether Ofsted thinks I need a stairgate or whether they approved of my parental decisions.

I think OFSTED has a place in business and schools which serve the public. But, a nanny is my employee, and I expect to make the rules (within reason).

I think there is a huge difference between being a childminder's client and a nanny's employer.

I generally find Ofsted policies to be well intended but horribly misguided. So, I wouldn't welcome them in my home.

NomDeClavier · 22/10/2013 12:17

Agencies IME don't necessarily know better than a well informed nanny, and tbh why would they?

The way it works is registration is an individual matter between OFSTED and a nanny. There were some rules and guidelines set out about what you needed to do in order to register and what you have to do in order to stay registered - qualifications, professional behaviour, being inspected etc. This is, of necessity, stuff that a nanny can take personal responsibility for. OFSTED say you need to provide a safe environment but they can't require you to change anything in it, all they can require you to do is manage that risk appropriately. One of the requirements of registration is to hold insurance.

Insurance is a different relationship between an insurance provider (broker plus underwriter) and the nanny. In order to minimise the risk of exposure an insurer may have different requirements to OFSTED. In order, then, to be square with their insurance which is required to maintain their OFSTED registration the nanny must do certain additional things.

An agency might be able to explain this, but equally so can any of the 3 professional organisations nannies can join, some local authorities, some payroll companies, various blogs - it just depends how informed the person answering the question is.

Agencies might say that as part of their remit they help nannies with the process but really they act as screening for the nannies and parents, and should mediate if it all falls apart. So in a sense they should be able to explain to a parents that written consent is probably necessary because it's normal for insurers to require it and insurance is a good thing to have but they don't simplify the relationship between OFSTED and the nanny in any way.

Lifebythesea2323 · 22/10/2013 12:20

Nom re court of law I was saying if a nanny was in taken to court a defence of I did what Ofsted or the insurance company said would not be good enough. A nanny still has to do what is best practice.
Unlikely to come to this stage I know.
Trish a nanny has to put the needs of the child first and ensure their safety and wellbeing. Nanny insurance insist that a nanny only gives non prescribed medicines when the parent has given written permission. There is no confusion regarding this it is a fact.
Also nannies have safeguarding duty of care and must ensure that their practice is safe and within the law.

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