how do we handle this? Potential nanny dishonesty

[HalfPastSeven]

Our nanny has been with us for years. She is great with the children and generally lovely. However, it looks like she may have been using "expenses" money for herself. Because she has been with us so long, we stopped checking receipts etc ages ago.

She has a card for one of our bank accounts which does not have loads of money in it, but has more than she needs for expenses (some other bills get paid out of that account). She is supposed to use that for expenses (e.g. when she buys food or takes the DC for trips etc)

Looking at the last couple of bank statements, it looks like she has been spending loads and I just can't understand what it is going on.

Obviously if she has been dishonest we wil have to let her go instantly and wont be abel to give her a reference. I feel quite sick about the whole thing.

What do you think is the best way to handle this - I dont want to accuse her of theft straight out just in case it is genuine expenses (although I find it hard to see that it could be) or if there has been a fraud on the account (although it is mainly local cash withdrawals ).

I do not use the account except for emergencies and nanny has DH's card.

Been following the thread.

What was the outcome of the conversation last night?

What happened halfpast?
Did you have the talk?

DH had the talk. We have got the card back. She seemed to be expecting the talk and volunteered the card back and seemed relieved to hand it over. DH approached it in a "we need to get more of a handle on what we are spending and budget better, and your expenses are looking very high" type way. She saw the bank statements, but DH did not go through them in detail. She was very apologetic while not admitting anything. She gave a few more expamples of things she had been spending on, and DH did not really push it. We will cancel the card in case there was also fraud going on, but think she woudl have raised this if she thought the number looked too big having seen the statement.

Reflecting on what to do.

What examples did she give?

Why didn't your DH go into detail? Surely she would have ounded surprised if she were totally innocent?

How old are your DC?

is it possible that she is being 'pressured' by one of them to spend more than the norm (e.g. School trips, friends round for a 'party', outings to the cinema with full pick and mix rather than to the park)?

Oh dear Half past. Things can add up - plenty of times we've had our credit card statement and said to ourselves: "It's WHAT?!"

Do you think that based on the conversation it really is more likely that she was covering her own expenses rather than normal day to day stuff running away with her a bit?

the examples she gave were she paid the cleaner twice (we had only recalled once but she is probably correct) and buys cleaning products requested by cleaner (this is true but she has always done this). She also mentioned the course I had already identified (I will double check cost of that).

So it is still far from adding up but we cannot completely prove anything. DH says she did seem relieved to give the card back, so I do wonder if someone was pressuring her to use the card saying we woudl probably not notice. the end date of the statement is 2 weeks ago, so the next statement will cover another 2 weeks when she still had the card so will be interesting to see that.

DC are 7 and 5. No outings etc in the time covered by the statement as still at school. A few after school playdates (some at our house some elsewhere), but no more than the norm.

DH is minded to give her the benefit of the doubt, becuase she looked relieved to give the card back and was apolgetic (without admitting things). He said she needed to give us receipts going forward and we would leave a sensible kitty, so she would need to let us know if there are any trips etc coming up so we ensure there is enough in it. She said no need for a kitty which is odd (maybe she was in her mind "borrowing" the money and now plans to pay back by covering expenses from her own pocket). alternatively she might have just meant she will pay out and then give us receipts to get reimbursed. there is a planned cinema trip on Friday so will leave out kitty money to cover that and see what happens.

I am reflecting to see how comfortable I feel (have locked away lots of paperwork). I think she knows her conversation with DH is not nec the end of it, although I dont know whether he said that directly.

We are going on hols soon. THere is a possible opportunity for DH to change his working hours shortly which would mean we would not need term time childcare (just the vexed question of holiday care), so there is a possible natural break anyway, but it is not clear whether or when this will come off.

because she is so lovely with the DC and out of concern for her own DS, DH also wants to give her a bit of an opportunity to redeem herself.

But I need to reflect.

I think you need to take charge a bit more, tbh, so that there is no lingering doubt. It would not be fair on your nanny otherwise.

Set a budget for each week and give her the cash every Monday morning. On Friday evening she needs to return to you any leftover cash, with full receipts for all her expenditure.

This way you know you're not being ripped off and she knows that she can't take any money from you.

Not saying that she has been, but you need to be absolutely clear about this.

And definitely lock away any valuables too - just in case.

Thanks. We will def make sure we get reciepts for everything, and I guess you are right we should be more specific about the kitty arrangements (I think DH was thinking that if she was implying - without admitting wrongdoing - that she would be paying us back by paying expenses out of her own pocket for a while, we should let her save face by doing that).

I am not so much worried about losing the money and being paid back and am comfortable that we will be able to come up with an arrnagement that makes sure we dont lose any more. Just more reflecting on whether it is right to continue to employ her. I have no concerns about my DC being safe with her, more that if her morals are more dubious than we had thought, that this could somehow impact on them.

I have to say I have worked for lots of families. Some were very generous with their money and some not so. Whatever the situation I was always mindful that I was spending someone else's money and wouldn't spend recklessly. Indeed sometimes I would use my own if I felt it was a lot.

Did she confirm that she had made all the withdrawals? Just thinking that if there was still the possibility that your card has been cloned, to continue not to act would perhaps make it more difficult for you to get the money back from the bank? My card was cloned, and we found out when we noticed a number of medium sized withdrawals locally. If she said it was her, then of course that is irrelevant!

We are going to cancel the card anyway. When DH said we/she needed to cut back on expenses and showed her the statement, she did not deny it was her or look shocked by the number. It was not clear to DH whether her apology was an apology for having used our money for her own expenses or an apology for having spent a bit too recklessly on day to day stuff without keeping track.

In a week where there are, say, 2 withdrawals of a similar amount in the same area (all are from cash points she would have reason to pass), I dont think she would recall which particular day was her (particularly 5 or 6 weeks ago), so we would probably not be able to prove that a particular transaction is fraudulent.

Just to be sure, DH is thinking of leaving it for a few days before cancelling card and checking whether there are any withdrawals in that period, although that obviously means risking losing a bit more. Cant decide which is best.

But you haven't really sort anything or even had a proper frank talk, have you?

You keep assuming things. She didn't mention any 'repaying'. Why didn't your dh ask straitforward questions i.e. 'how the money were spent' and 'how can you work without kitty'. You have missed the cleaner so i am thinking that you might have missed other things to underestimate cost if you dont write down.

Dont think we can do more to "sort" the past. DH showed her the statement and asked what the money had been spent on. She was vague and gave a few examples, most of which we had already identified, and the rest of which dont account for all of the shortfall. She cant remember precisely what cash she withdrew when and what precisely she spent it on. She does not have many receipts as we did not check them any more so she did not keep them. That is our mistake and there is nothing we can do about that for the past.

Hence we cannot prove dishonesy and she cannot prove she was not dishonest. But in my mind there is still a big shortfall. If she had confessed, we would have acted. But she did not confess (although was apologetic), and DH was not mentally ready to "force" a confession and the consequences of that, which is why he left it.

We do need to "sort" 2 things for the future:

1. whether to keep her on. We cant sack for gross misconduct as cannot prove it but could give notice. I want to give it a few days to see how I feel about it.

1. kitty arrangements going forward. DH did not ask her to be more direct in explaining how she thought things woudl work with no kitty, becuase he thought (if she was hinting that she would pay us back in this way) that to get her to spell this out explicitly would be akin to a confession (which he was not mentally ready for). But we will come up with something sensible and put it in place. Need to reflect on amount given schools hols about to start, so there will be more outings etc.

How can you even think about sacking her if you can't prove anything? You have no grounds for anything at the moment, not even a warning, IMO, as you have no system in place that you can prove that she has abused, nor can you prove that she has stolen any money.

Given that she is so good with your DC (and you profess to be so concerned about her DS and her financial situation) surely you should be giving her the benefit of the doubt?

But make sure you put a watertight system in place from now on and that you manage it properly.

You haven't even asked her if she spent the money, and what on? How can you do anything else until you actually know what has happened and why?

Seems like you have bottled out of trying to understand what has happened here. Why not ask her to provide an estimate of what she has paid for over the previous 2 week period.

That's not too far back to remember.
If she says cleaner £20, bus fares £20, shopping £50, unexplained £150 then I think you can push her a bit further about the £150 unexplained.

If you don't make a bit more effort to get to grips with this you are never going to feel very comfortable about employing your nanny imo.

She didn't 'hint to pay you back'

'prove' , 'dishonesty', 'confession'

'He was not mentally ready for confession' !!!

I understand the not being mentally ready as it must be very upsetting to think you would have to sack a nanny who had worked very hard for you and whom the children likes.

This woman has worked for you for 'years', she is great with your children. I understand how difficult the conversation will be but you really owe it to her to ask her outright what has happened to the money. You really cannot just sack her!!!

This exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. It turned out the nanny's boyfriend had pressured her for the PIN and was using the card for cash for himself.

I have to agree with the other posters that things seem to have been left very much up in the air which isn't fair on anybody. I would suggest another meeting, if you still want to ask about the funds then go through the statements, go through what you and she have recalled as being spent and then illustrate the shortfall.

You say she was 'apologetic' but didn't shed any light on the outstanding money, this would be ringing alarm bells with me. That's a LOT of money to just lose track of. Until you get this sorted out there's going to be no trust between anyone and I can't see how you can all work together unless you are more explicit and get it thrashed out.

You mention that your dh may be able to juggle his hours and you may not need a nanny anymore - bear in mind that as she has been with you for a number of years she will be entitled to a redundancy payment from you, it may well leave quite a bitter taste in your mouth handing over a sizeable figure to her given what has been going on.

Agree with upsydozy. Understand it's difficult, but think you have bottled it.

You are all right of course. I think there is a difference in approach between DH and me. His approach, as reflected in how he spoke to the nanny, was to try to find any obvious answers but otherwise put her on notice that we are on to it (whatever it is), make sure it can't happen again but otherwise draw a line under it and essentially sweep it under the carpet. I understand that - it is very much his style anyway, and the nanny has in all other ways been fantastic.

I am not sure though that I can, or should, do that. I wanted a couple of days to see how I feel about her, but if I decide I can't take the DH approach I will get an updated statement and make her go through the last week in the way suggested.

Upsydozy, what did your friend do?