how do we handle this? Potential nanny dishonesty

[HalfPastSeven]

Our nanny has been with us for years. She is great with the children and generally lovely. However, it looks like she may have been using "expenses" money for herself. Because she has been with us so long, we stopped checking receipts etc ages ago.

She has a card for one of our bank accounts which does not have loads of money in it, but has more than she needs for expenses (some other bills get paid out of that account). She is supposed to use that for expenses (e.g. when she buys food or takes the DC for trips etc)

Looking at the last couple of bank statements, it looks like she has been spending loads and I just can't understand what it is going on.

Obviously if she has been dishonest we wil have to let her go instantly and wont be abel to give her a reference. I feel quite sick about the whole thing.

What do you think is the best way to handle this - I dont want to accuse her of theft straight out just in case it is genuine expenses (although I find it hard to see that it could be) or if there has been a fraud on the account (although it is mainly local cash withdrawals ).

I do not use the account except for emergencies and nanny has DH's card.

But she needs to be sure about 'personal use' because even tea in Ritz, taxis, pizza, cinema, can be described as 'part of the job'. (technically speaking ).
It will be very difficult for OP to prove anything.

But if it was hundreds pounds then maybe something dodgy happened, in that case you need immiade and sharp chat.

If you're not asking for receipts, won't it be hard to prove that she didn't just spend more than usual on her normal expenses? What will you do if you ask her and she tells you she has just been doing more expensive things this month? Can you dismiss her based on that?

You need to start checking receipts again...

I just had a thought.
It would be good if StillS was on the thread and advice OP before OP acts. Perhaps if someone sees her on another thread....

Not read any updates but late last night it suddenly came to me - does she take out cash as it causes problems in shops if the sales assistant sees she has a card with Mr on it?

i dont get why is it odd to take money out with a card rather then pay with a card? a, it might not be possible to pay ie for coffees/drinks with a card at some places and b, the nanny might prefer it that way, we are all different. if the op didnt say anything about how they want the nanny to use the card, i dont think its anything weird about it as such.
watching with interest, how the situation develops ...

I think it's not just the matter of cash withdrawals per se, but the amount of cash withdrawals.

The name on the card thing occurred to me to and ALSO: OP are you're sure your DH isn't using it for anything? If it is hundreds of pounds.

How did it come up again?

Is there any change, that you're aware of, to her personal circumtances?

If his name is on the account and hers isn't at all, hence the need for the cash withdrawls, I think it will be very very difficult to prove to a third party (such as an employment tribunal if you fire her and she disputes it) that she was the one who made the withdrawls.

I understand your concern about trusting her with your kids, house, etc going forward if through investigating it.

But, if the situation is as I've described, plus you've not talked about budgets and asked for receipts, I think there are a lot of ways you could put yourself at risk here if you're not careful.

If you go down the route of checking through the bank accts line by line she is going to feel accused anyway. You need to be ready for things to get unpleasant I think.

I would cancel the current card on the advice of one of the previous posters re security risk of 'sharing' an account in this way.

Then you can say, I think it makes sense for us to agree a weekly budget with you - we can deposit an amt into your acct directly or we can give you cash at the start of the week. Which do you prefer?

Then say for tax filing purposes you will need to go back to requesting receipts.

And then see her reaction. I think if she's relying on the money for her own lifestyle this will come out in the wash.

I've just seen that you also said that 'some other bills get paid out of this account.'

OP tread very carefully here with the nanny.

We did set up rules - we told her she could use the card for expenses akin to a kitty. Initially she left receipts but we stopped checking these after about a year. We trust her with our kids and in our house, so why not our money (naive on reflection I admit). We have always been clear the card is for expenses. For example, she has her own oyster card for travelling to and from work. We gave her a second one for any travelling with the DC and she knows she is allowed to top that up from our account but not the one for her own travel.

IF she has been using our card for anything other that expenses, then that is of course dishonesty in the same way as if I use my work credit card for personal expenditure and do not reimburse the company. Of course, whether we can "prove" that is another matter.

Although we did set rules, it is true that we did not set a budget. However, in the year or so when we did monitor receipts (before DC were at school so more time in which to spend), the expenditure has been reasonable. We do still informally monitor - that is how we picked this up. She keeps a diary of what they do and what they eat, and I also see what food has been added to the fridge. Any "big" expendinture would normally be checked with us first (e.g. do we want her to pay for this term's swimming lessons) or specifically requested by us. We obviously get the bank statements. This is the first time the number has jumped out as being way over the norm. We are talking average of more than £200 a week over the month (so more than £800 in total). In that time I can think of 3 birthday presents (£10 each max), 1 lot of summer activity course (around £120 in total), no trips (kids at school) but probably the odd bus fare (£1.20 a go) There has been some grocery shopping, but I do the main shop so I cannot see how she could be spending well in excess of what I have spent on her top up shopping. Their after school activities have been paid for by me in advance. Based on things visible to me, I cant get above about £350 (even that asumes higher grocery expenditure than norm) Of course, I appreciate there will also be some things that are not visible, but it is very odd that the spending has increased significantly at the same time as there has been a switch from using the card in shops to making cash withdrawals.

I saw her briefly this morning - we will talk to her this evening and will handle it gently - advice above has been v helpful. She was her usual lovely self and I find it so hard to believe there could be wrongdoing on her part. I "hope" it is fraud (but I dont undertstnad, if someone else is using the card as well as her, why the statement does not also contain the usual trasnactions at Sainsburys etc as well as the cash withdrawals). If she acknowledges it is her but she can justify even a good part of the expenditure (i.e why it might be higher than norm) we will give her the benefit of the doubt, although will obviously need to change the sytem going forward which will make me sad (it does feel very uncomfortable to trust someone with my children if i dont feel i can trust them with my money).

The other bills are a fixed amount and the increased expenditure is all cash withdrawals. The amount of money going in to this account each month is based on the amount of the bills going out plus a generous estimate of nanny expenses plus a bit of headroom. 2 of the bills that used to go out of that account no longer do (one no longer needed and the other one we switched supplier and gave a different account for our direct debit without thinking about it). Hence, there is some more surplus money in the acocunt than there used to be (there always used to be some as the expenses have normally been lower than the generous estimate). So far as I know, our nanny does not know how much goes in to the account or that there has been a change in the other outgoings (although I guess she could use her card to get mini-statements). We will obviously now reduce the monthly transfer in to the account and (even if things are all explicable, will take the card off her at least for a while until we are back to having a handle on expenses). Will also set a weekly budget going forward (esp. for the holiday period when there will be outings etc).

Can I ask, if it appears not to be fraud and she cannot explain why her expendture has more than doubled, would you trust her with your DC and in your house even for the 4 weeks notice period? I am preparing for the worst here (I really find it hard to believe she could do this). DC will be devastated if she has to leave, and (if instant) I need a story lined up to explain to them.

you could monitor the account online and then the next time she makes a cash withdrawal, tell her the bank contacted you as a routine security check. Ask her why she was withdrawing such a large amount and ask her what exactly it was for. that should give you a good idea as to what is going on, but it doesn't look good.

Thats a lot of money when the activities are paid by you.

To answer your question, no if i was sure she took the money i wouldn't want her to work the 4 wks. That's because i would imagine drugs, addictions, dodgy boyfriend etc. But maybe i have a wild imagination.

Have you met her boyfriend btw?

She is in a long term relationship and has a son. I have met her boyfriend once. I have also met her mother (she has a lot of family around her). Child comes to work with her some days, and stays with her mother other days.

Her home life seems really stable from what I can gauge, although she does not talk about it that much. She really seems so lovely. I am sure it is not drugs on her part.

I wouldn't try any complicated ways of asking about it. It is your money, it is your right to ask her how it was spent. There is no need to dress it up. I would just say that you had noticed that the amount spent recently was higher than previously and ask what it was spent on. There will either be a reasonable explanation or not. If nanny denies using the cashpoint it may be worth pointing out that a lot of cashpoints have cameras in them now so the bank may have photos of who has been using them. And that if she didn't use the cashpoint you will need to report it as theft to the police who will also have access to CCTV.
If this was my ex-nanny I would put my money on her boyfriend having found out the PIN and helping himself!

FAB, I had that thought about why she might have started using cash, but it does not explain the large increase in amount at the same time.

is there any kind of fraud anyone can think of that would explain this, e.g. that would clone the card but also affect how the "real" card can be used?

I am now in tears. There are so many implications of this.

What if after our conversation we cannot "prove" wrongdoing on her part but still strongly suspect it. Can we really trust her with our children and in our house (there is only so much we can do in securing our papers in our own home) but sounds like we wont be able to sack her.

What if she admits it? We will then obviously dismiss her immediately and take a view on whether to pay her notice. My DC will be devastated - they adore her and her DS. Obviously either DH or I will take leave from work for a while, and reflect, but even so it will be very upsetting for them.

I am also worried about what it woud mean financially for her and her DS. I doubt she will easily get another job with similar pay that allows her to take her DS to work (never mind the potential reference issue), and if she is taking money that must mean she is already struggling financially.

Also, I am now worried based on some of the comments above that if she has been dishonest, it would be so out of character for her that maybe there is something dodgy going on behind the scene, in which case there could be comeback for my family. Not so worried about the employment law side, although appreciate we need to be careful. More whether there could be any threats etc. Paranoid thinking maybe, but then I just dont understnad any of this.

cheesetoastie, re boyfriend, he does not live or work in our area, and most of the cash withdrawals are in our area during her working hours. it is possible he is putting her up to it though.

Oh Gosh, i feel bad now. Are you in tears because of what i said about drugs and boyfriend? As i said, it might be wild imagination.

It might be much simpler. IF (and this is a big If) she takes the money, maybe she is having lunches with other nannies. In some areas nannies are spoilt and you need to spend to keep up with them and be part of the gang.

Or maybe she had difficulties and was planning to put the money back. Like 'borrowing'. And she was embarrased to tell you.

There are millions of scenarios.

Does she pays your cleaner or any gardening?

Half past

Try not to panic, seriously. Take everything one step at a time.

I've just seen the scale of the amounts coming out. It could well be fraud.

I was about to say 'borrowing' too laquitar.

Half - whatever is said isn't going to be easy. She may get very defensive and you then will think maybe you are wrong.

If I were you, I'd jot down a few pointers, just so that you don't forget anything.
I hope there's a simple explanation and it can be resolved amicable.
Good luck.

Sally x

DH pays cleaner, although very occasionally will ask her to do it if he is short. He did this once in this month (I recall the occassion), but I agree this kind of thing makes it harder to "prove". She will know how often we have asked her to do this, but we probably could not prove it to anyone else.

laquitar, it is more thinking about implications on my DC and her DS that is upsetting me.

DH is going to do most of the talking (I will need to keep the DC out of the way). I got bad news about something else today (friend's illness) so am upset anyway, and think it will be counter-productive if I burst in to tears! I can also do the good cop thing if it looks like she is "innocent" and blame it on DH expressly things incorrectly rather than us thinking she has been dishonest if she feels accused.

I really hope it goes well.

Don't worry too much about the children if she leaves suddenly. I used to be a nanny and children are surprisingly resilient.

I used to work for someone, looking after their baby who they had trusted me with, but was never allowed to take the door key home with me.

My first thought is that maybe she has got herself into debt and is "borrowing" the money from you with the intention of giving it back - it's easy for these things to spiral out of control.

In that situation if I really liked the nanny, I'd consider forgiving her and sorting out a repayment plan. I understand not everyone would see it that way, but maybe she was desperate and couldn't see another solution.

If she's taking money to buy shoes and holidays that's a different matter of course.

Good luck halfpast