How attractive could this be to a nanny?

[SuiGeneris]

Hi, am a nanny newbie (meaning we are looking to employ our first nanny) and would appreciate some advice from those with more experience to see whether the following arrangements could be attractive for a nanny (and if not, how to improve them).

I will probably go back to work 3 days a week in January/February, when DS will be one; ideally I will be one day in the office and two days at home, or viceversa. We are thinking of having a nanny for 3 and 1/2 days a week, probably working 8am til 6.30/7pm on the days I am in the office, 8am til 5pm when I am at home and 8am til middayish on the fourth, for a total of 36/37 hours.

I would expect the nanny to cook from scratch and do usual nursery duties when baby is asleep or I am playing with him (e.g. for lunch break on the days I work from home). We have a cleaner, so nanny would only need to look after self and baby and leave kitchen and play areas tidy. I would probably want her to take DS to playground and possibly one or two playgroups, but most of the time it would be one-to-one care.

On ground rules, we have not thought v much about it, but it would be something along these lines:

1. no smoking anywhere- not in the garden, not at home.
2. No hot drinks in the same room as the baby- ever (I know too many people with scars from hot beverages spilt on them when they were kids).
3. DS not to be taken to playdates with people we do not know. We are to meet the family at the weekend before playdates arranged during the week.
4. DS not to go in places where there are pets/other animals/smoking (we are an allergic family, DS likely to be allergic too).
5. no tv
6. no ready made food, no junk food and no eating out for main meals
7. DS to have culturally appropriate mealtimes (i.e. DS not to have had supper when returned to parents at 7pm)

Do we sound like the employer from hell or is this par for the course? All advice gratefully received

re your rules I would say 1 is fine, 2 is a bit OTT, 3 is nuts - meeting the family at the weekend?? your nanny will be with your ds all the time, so if someone wants to invite them round to their house for playtime, why not? chances are it might be another nanny and not the family.
4 might be hard to enforce though I understand your worry.

5 is ok
6 is fine though why not let him eat out now and again - lunch in a cafe isn't a problem is it?
7 "culturally appropriate" sounds a bit wanky. you could just say you want him to have set mealtimes and routine.

You sound a bit micro-managing tbh. But you are entitled to be a bit anxious when leaving your PFB for the first time with someone!

Nanny here!

First good for you asking. I hope my answers aren't too harsh :) it's totally understandable you're nervous about leaving your little one with someone else but try not to scare them off with a list of demands! Think about how you phrase them...

1 Sure, I can be fired for doing it

2 What is nanny supposed to with DS when cooking? Will DS never have soup or hot food? Whilst I think you can say she's not to have hot drinks whilst actively on duty (I.e. restrict them to times when DS is napping or lunch) I think you might have issues with playgroups too!

3 your nanny will have no nanny friends at that rate. Would it be more reasonable for her to invite them to yours first on a day you're working before accepting an invitation yo theirs?

4 understandable

5 also ok

6 If that's your feeling then fine, but IMO children benefit from eating out at quite a young age in terms if learning table manners and being at ease eating places which aren't home. As long as it's not all the time.

7 perfectly reasonable, just phrase it as sticking to DS's routine re: mealtimes. Beware of culturally appropriate if you're not employing a nanny from the same culture as you! Where I live eating at 8 is fine for children!

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of honest feedback I am looking for. Especially as we are considering also nanny sharing, so need to understand how wacky or normal our thoughts on these matters are.

Surprised you think the no pets rule would be difficult to enforce. What if we explained to the nanny how serious my allergies (and therefore the likelihood of DS being allergic too) are? Background is that I get ill if somebody with pets comes to our house when I am away, sits on the sofa and then I sit on the same spot two days later (this happened various times, friend in question now dons new set of clothes when coming to see us). Surely if she understood how good a pet dander detector my airways are she would stick to it? Very interested because in my mind this is a dealbreaker- if she is not prepared to stick to it, she's not working for us (and if she breaks the rule it is gross misconduct).

6- occasionally yes, but occasionally to me means once a month or so, not once a week. Don't want DS to grow up thinking it is perfectly normal to eat out just because you fancy it (as opposed to because it is convenient in that you do not have time to go home and then out again for the next activity). Also cafe food for kids round here is generally horrifying (nuggets, sandwiches).

7- was trying to make it sound general. I come from a culture where families eat together and kids to go bed later than in the UK, so would be horrified to come home to find DS has had supper at a time that to me is the middle of the afternoon, also want him to be rested enough to enjoy time with DH and me when we get home...

Not harsh at all. Thanks again.

2- on cooking we have a kitchen that is too small for DS to play in, but as it abuts onto the sitting room, we intend to have a moveable baby gate between kitchen and sitting room, so DS can play while I or the nanny cook. Playgroups are a worry (sby I know, now 18, has large scar on his chest from tea spilt on him at a playdate)...

3- brilliant suggestion. That is probably more workable too. Thanks!

Will of course use careful wording- this is more of a hurried post snatched during baby nap time!

Hi, they all seem fine with me - I've a very similar set of rules for my nanny. Its easier to set strict boundaries initially - you can always relax them a bit later.

1. You basically need to specify that you don't want a nanny that smokes at all.
2. I only allow hot drinks on the mantle piece in the lounge. Its less of a problem at play groups as the coffee/tea is usually pre made and not as hot!
3. I wouldn't want my nanny taking my children to places/people I hadn't been before either. If you just arrange classes/playgroups most days your nanny won't get bored.
4. Only prob I have is that allergies are more likely when a child hasn't been exposed to a large number of antigens - you may be doing more harm than good keeping him away.
5. Fine
6. Okay - but i don't think its workable in all situations as your son gets older and is out during the day more he'll need to eat somewhere and not all places are suitable for a pic nic.
7. Fine, just need to specify times.

I also added stuff like what cleaning needed doing - ie wipe surfaces (dettox) and sweep floor at the end of the day in the kitchen.
Put toys away in the correct boxes.
Only use the phone for emergencies.

As i said its just easier if you get things straight to begin with.

I've had two long term nannies and its always worked well.

Short answer to your question, I think, is not very attractive! I am not a nanny but a former nanny employer and wouldn't even have thought of some of the things you have suggested.

1. Fine, we are non-smokers, perfectly ok to want a nanny who is also a non-snoker.
2. If the no hot drinks rule is enforcable at your home -fine, as long as you are not expecting the nanny never to have a coffee/tea while in your house. Almost impossible to enforce while out, I would have thought. If your nanny meets a "pre-approved" friend and he/she is having a coffee, will you expect your nanny to leave the park/softplay/cafe whatever?
3. I think you will doom your nanny to a life of being lonely/bored if you insist on meeting their friends beforehand. As a nanny employer, if I thought I could not trust my nanny to have appropriate playdates for my children, I would have had the wrong nanny! As a parent, if another family asked to meet me beforehand to vet my child's/nanny's suitability as a friend I would have told them to take a hike! If this was going to be at the weekend, would you expect the other nanny to be present (presumably on her time off?)
4. Follows on from above, will your nanny have to quiz every potential friend before deciding whether she can take your child there? If your allergies are so severe, what will happen if your child goes to the library, picks up cat hair from a seat there, transfers it to your sofa? Will you blame the nanny?
5. No tv fine at this age certainly
6. Also fine on the food front, 1 year olds don't need ready meals, I wouldn't want my nanny eating out very often for lunch but don't think I would impose a blanket ban. Does no eating out mean only cafes or also picnics in the park, lunch at someone's house?
7. I'm not entirely sure what culturally appropriate meals means but if it relates to timing, as in your example, entirely fine to specify when you want your child to eat - as long as, e.g. a very late supper does not make them a whiny, unhappy mess for the last two hours of the day which the nanny has to deal with.

Today will be lunch out - will probably be macaroni cheese, or chicken breast and vegetables.

Perfectly ok to restrict eating out but sometimes it works better if they can eat out - such as today we go swimming, then have lunch at the club, as once in the car LO will probably sleep, so would not eat until late afternoon, rather than at lunchtime.
Your concern seems to be about the quality of the food - so perfectly reasonable. Not all eating out places are the same... though they may all be bad where you live.

Does the pet/animal thing apply outdoors - as may come across dogs, horses, cows, sheep, deer etc when out and about. If you are very allergic to certain animals, if they encounter animals whilst out, then once home all clothing could be changed and washed - would that be enough to help protect you? Your son may not be as allergic as you, reaction may be mild or have no reaction at all. Avoiding all animals could be hard, avoiding very close contact is possible but a dog could pass the buggy in the street... would that need to be avoided?

Consider if the rules would still apply in 2 years time.

Another nanny here, and with absolute honest opinions.

No smoking - absolutely fine and one almost everyone accepts.

Can understand the pet thing if you are deathly allergic which you seem to be. No different really than saying that someone deathly allergic to peanuts - never have peanuts in, etc.

The hot drink thing sounds very petty to me - yes you may know people who have scars as a child, etc etc - but people are much more aware of this nowadays, specifically childcarers - and again it's a case of not trusting. I get that you say there could be accidents - but in that case nanny should never feed him hot food in case it burns his mouth, nanny should never take him out in case get hit by a car/bus, nanny should never wear shoes in case steps on child, etc. etc. - all that sounds over the top, but again it's a case of trusting your nanny to make good judgements. I don't know any nannies who would have a hot drink whilst holding a baby for example, or standing over a baby.

And the thing about your son never visiting anyone you haven't met before is very and to be honest, I would never work for anyone who stipulated this as it sounds as though you do not trust your nanny to make good judgements re: the people she takes your DS to be around.

Ditto for the eating out - if I ever take a child out (I am very much with Frakk that it advances table manners and a sense of expectations about being in public/eating around others) I would never choose a nugget/chips/pizza place over a healthy cafe with options like chicken/hummus wrap, healthy pasta, or other things similar to what I'd make at home. I also think it's odd that you don't want your child to ever think it's ok to eat out because he fancies it

No TV perfectly fine.

Not eating before 7pm - fine to stipulate, but make sure he does get enough to eat in the day, whether this means shifting breakfast & lunch later so he is not starving by 7 or giving a very filling snack about 3-4.

I would not say all this in a big rush if these are your wishes and deem them 'rules', especially in an interview or trial situation, as your potential candidate will most likely run a mile. That is when you would come over like boss from hell. I would bring them up casually in coversation such as 'what do you enjoy doing' - if she mentions TV, that's when you swoop in and say 'we'd prefer if DS didn't watch TV' to which she should say 'of course, no problem'.

In your advert I would say that your candidate must under no circumstances have pets at home, otherwise you'll have problems weeding them out when you get all the responses.

Good luck :)

And to answer your post title - not attractive in the least . When I clicked the post I was expecting a list of perks, not rules!

We're also at present trying to set up some kind of "guidelines" to be clear before we start so that our new nanny knows where she stands. I had the idea of having two lists: things which are really important to us and things which we'd really like whenever possible.
So, on my list of really importants I will have no tv, no smoking, no sweets and if child goes down sick give me a call on my mobile. On my list of "would like whenever possible", I would discuss routine - I'd like him to have a warm lunch whenever possible, I'd like her to develop a routine, tell me about it and stick to it as much as possible (days out will probably end up with him not having a warm lunch at home...). What do people think about this approach?

When Karoleann said about relaxing rules later, I have learnt the hard way that you have to be REALLY clear about this too - we got into the situation where a rule which was really important to us, we thought we were relaxing as a one off, was understood as being relaxed forever ... which lead to real problems. It's hard to argue that she didn't do what you wanted, when she comes back saying that you told her she didn't have to.

Simic I think that sounds much more reasonable - but again, you will get many more candidates onside if you don't describe them as 'rules' (which they very well are and you have the right to set!) but 'what you'd expect' from a nanny. The semantics of language is important even though you're really saying the same thing.

I'd suggest to both of you ask your nanny to write a diary for each day detailing meals, nappies (if appropriate), activities, sleep times, any injuries/medicine, anything noteworthy.

Also - bring them up of course in interview/trials but not all at once so as not to overwhelm her. You should then after everything's been covered stick them all in the contract under 'responsibilities and duties' - she can not then complain you've never told her, and you have them in black and white should a situation ever come up which she's not adhering to your wishes.

disclaimer - sorry NannyNick and all other male nannies for shameless use of 'her' throughout post

As an employer you can set whatever 'rules' you deem appropriate but tbh a nanny who feels mistrusted and kicromanaged as can be the feeling by so many rules is likely to become unhappy, frustrated and leave. Lots of nannies is not good for your ds either.

Rule one is fine - I'd be had for gross misconduct if I did.

Rule two - Whilst I can see your concerns about safety and young children I would also probably take it that you clearly thought me an irresponsible twit. It's a good thing I hate hot drinks.

Rule three - understandable to have concerns but if you don't trust your nanny to make appropriate judgements then don't hire her. it's a VERY lonely job. I had a job where the baby and I couldn't go anywhere and it quickly turns to resentment which is not good for your ds.

Rule four - impossible to enforce and judge. Other children may have pets at playgroups, you pass dogs in the street, other animals you can also come into contact with unknowingly. Nanny might have a pet so you probably need to be specific about that.
I once had a problem because I wore an outdoor coat on a trip out that I had last worn horseriding. It never occured to me that a couple of months down the line it would be a problem for DB.

Rule five - fine

Rule six - Fine regarding junk food. Eating out can be an enriching experience for children and again your nanny should use her judgement as to what to feed them. My charges and I have often eaten out of we're on one of our adventure days and don't have to eat nuggets, burgers and fries.

Rule seven - what exactly does culturally appropriate mean. In English nanny culture I have always fed my charges long before their parents put in an appearance - in fact most of the time the children are asleep before the parents get in. Just specify when you want him to eat his evening meal because that has implications for the nanny. She may have to give him a small snack to keep him going as, in my experience, children of that age can get really ratty any time from four thirty onwards.

I think I would feel all the time in this post that you didn't trust me and if you are planning on working from home - who is in charge? Are you going to micromanage and swoop in every time you ds grizzles or leave the nanny to get on with it and trust her judgement

Are you looking for experienced/qualified nanny? If so, no this wouldn't be attractive.
A young nanny would accept it as first-or second-job.

The thing is if you find a good nanny who accepts the job and you micro manage her like this you will probably have rows, end it, start looking again etc. especially as you will be working from home.

If you are at home and you are not a relaxed person it is very difficult to step back and let someone else deal with your child. From your list and the way you have worded it i guess you might find this difficult. (this isn't a critisism) In a way a CM or nursery could suit you best.

Can i ask what rates and perks are you offering? You don't have to answer this.

Another thought on the subject which was niggling at me but which I couldn't quite get to grips with in the my earlier post is that I think the kind of experienced, reliable, conscientious nanny whom you are presumably looking for (let's face it, that's what we all want!), some of whom have posted on this topic, are the very ones who will be put off by the feeling that you don't trust them to make good judgement calls and are therefore unlikely to be attracted to this position. On the other hand, a nanny who is struggling to find work may be more likely to say yes to a whole raft of rules and regulations and then be the very person who struggles to fulfil your expectations.

Ooh, and Laquitar has pretty much said the same thing while I was posting! I was also wondering if perhaps some great perks might make this job attractive to experienced nannies, although I think the potential solitary nature of not being able to eat out, having to weed out all pet situations, pre-screen friends etc will still outweigh extra money or gym memberships!

Excactly annh. This is what i was thinking and couldn't word it.

x-post

I hope we haven't scared off the OP by coming on too strong! We really didn't mean to. I think we all appreciate that employing a nanny is a scary business, for many of us it's the only bit of recruitment we'll ever have to do and it's concerning our most precious possession! If a nanny is the best childcare solution for you, there are lots of good ones out there and you are very wise to think about expectations beforehand and canvass a range of opinions on what is desirable.

I am also going back to work in January and despite having about 8 years of nanny employment behind me, I have spent some considerable time this morning doodling and dithering at the pc while I try to get my head around finding a nanny for myself! This topic should be a kick in the bum for me! (Anyone know a good after-school nanny who would like to look after 12 and 9 yr olds in the Woking area?)

Honestly apart from 1 (which again in my contract) the rest of your rules would make me run a mile

blondes is blunt :)

I understand about your allergy (must be awful) and a small bit of tv is acceptable when older

but tbh the whole list is too ott and I feel that you don't trust your nanny ( to be)

I've been in my career for nearly 20yrs and you may find a young unexperenced nanny happy with the list - but Many older nannies don't like to be micro manged

also you working from home and suddenly popping in to take your child to the park etc would put me off and can start to confuse the child

if you work from home you need ideally to stay in your office and not interfere :)

Being a nanny employer, I'm trying to improve! On the one hand, the nanny is a professional and if they're good, you want to honour that and give them the responsibility (without micromanaging) that they deserve. On the other hand, this is a professional and deserves communication on what is important to the family and the values of the family they're working for (or is that crazy? - just I think it seems a silly situation for everyone if the nanny is struggling to keep the child's clothes clean while the parents feel that the child doesn't get enough chance to get dirty and have more rough play outside).
How do you get this right? I had in the past thought that getting to know each other as well as possible through chatting is the best way, but it's easy for a parent to assume the nanny picked up on something (eg. "I saw that you just used the cotton buds in ds's ear. Actually they are not for cleaning the children's ears. Maybe if ds's ears are dirty you could just leave it and tell me"), but the nanny actually didn't pick up on it. So it does seem best to get something in writing - even if only after an initial period as Starberries suggests. Is it sensible to sit down and work on this document together with the nanny?

Sorry, the example I gave of the cotton buds was from our not so great nanny so is a bad example...!

i'm a nanny employer and I think the overall tone is too rigid. I initially found it strange to have other nannies and children in our house and to hear about my son going to others' houses but I quickly accepted that this was normal and a positive thing. I wouldn't sit at home alone with my child - why should nanny? it's unreasonable to try to arrange meetings in advance and the other children's nannies are unlikely to be available at the weekend.

i would agree with the notion that an inexperienced or desperate nanny might agree to all of these, while the experienced, confident nanny you would really want to employ would balk.

A big part of putting your child into someone else's care is having confidence in that person and their judgement.

I trust my nanny 100% and that is worth more than being satisfied she is following a checklist.

I'm a nanny employer, and I work part time from home as well, so in some ways my situation is similar to yours, but I have 2 DCs.

1. no smoking - fine and understandable.

1. No hot drinks - Really???? Do you NEVER have hot drinks yourself when your DC is awake?? WAY over the top for me, and my fab nanny would probably run a mile if I gave her that silly rule, and rightly so.

1. playdates - You sound way too over protective here. This is a nanny we're talking about, not an inexperienced au pair or some teenager. If you are going to trust him/her with your child, then do exactly that, TRUST them, and give them the freedom to interact with other adults. Ask to be informed by all means, but that's quite different to what you're suggesting.

1. Animals - I know it's tough with your allergy, but unless your DC is also allergic, you are setting them up to be forever scared of them if they don't have some limited contact with animals. A clued in nanny should be able to take the DC to a farm, bring child home and change them and pop the clothes into the washing machine straight away.

1. no tv - fine to an extent.... but.... What about these scenarios - your DC is ill/teething and is just being a whingy pants all day, wanting nothing but being cuddled on the sofa. What's wrong with a small break of TV on CBEEBIES to take their mind off feeling so ill while being cuddled by the nanny?

OR, your nanny is feeling absolutely shite but drags herself into work because if she/he didn't you would be up the creek without a paddle because you have an important day at work, and has a bit of a tv/dvd day with the DC.

• Just something for you to think about!

1. Food - Wow, poor nanny. Never allowed to go out? (Or only once a month as you've clarified?) And poor DC. Eating out teaches them manners while out, and at a young age your nanny could probably take something prepared anyway.

1. culturally appropriate mealtimes - well, that's a load of waffle and I think you know it. You need to actually set out what this means properly.

Routine - be very, very careful of insisting on a strict routine for your DC. Some routine is good, but don't you want a child that can be a bit flexible? What happens if on the day you have your DC you have to go somewhere urgently around meal/nap time? Do you really want a child that's going to be a screaming banshee if their routine is disrupted or one that will happily fall asleep in a buggy while on the move/will snack on something healthy until lunch can be given????!!!

And don't forget, that nannies do their job because they love children (if they don't they shouldn't be nannies!). With an inexperienced nanny you may want/need some extra guidelines at the beginning, but you need to be willing to loosen them as they get more comfortable/experienced in the role. Otherwise you might as well place your child in a nursery if you don't trust someone to look after them on their own.

I can't really add much to what the others have said but agree that some (not) of the rules would make me run a mile! I enjoy making friends for the children and myself and hope that my employers would trust my judgement. I am happy to introduce them to fellow nannies and their charges (I am keen for them to see how their children interact with others and the fun they have with their friends) but for it to be a prerequisite of socialising at all would really put me off. We have met many new friends at music classes etc and to turn down a trip to the park afterwards because my employer had not yet met them would leave me incredibly frustrated and quite isolated. Equally, I like to take my charges out for lunch occasionally - for example if we go out for a trip to the science museum, we may all go to the cafe there for lunch so they can spend more time enjoying the museum and sleep on the way home. Again, my employers trust my judgement to choose a healthy, balanced, child appropriate meal.

I think what you need to do is hire the best nanny you feel you can find, who you feel will be sensible and has good judgement, who will choose suitable playmates and appropriate meals. By all means ask to meet fellow nannies and charges but don't insist on it beforehand. Best of luck :)