How attractive could this be to a nanny?

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Hi, am a nanny newbie (meaning we are looking to employ our first nanny) and would appreciate some advice from those with more experience to see whether the following arrangements could be attractive for a nanny (and if not, how to improve them).

I will probably go back to work 3 days a week in January/February, when DS will be one; ideally I will be one day in the office and two days at home, or viceversa. We are thinking of having a nanny for 3 and 1/2 days a week, probably working 8am til 6.30/7pm on the days I am in the office, 8am til 5pm when I am at home and 8am til middayish on the fourth, for a total of 36/37 hours.

I would expect the nanny to cook from scratch and do usual nursery duties when baby is asleep or I am playing with him (e.g. for lunch break on the days I work from home). We have a cleaner, so nanny would only need to look after self and baby and leave kitchen and play areas tidy. I would probably want her to take DS to playground and possibly one or two playgroups, but most of the time it would be one-to-one care.

On ground rules, we have not thought v much about it, but it would be something along these lines:

1. no smoking anywhere- not in the garden, not at home.
2. No hot drinks in the same room as the baby- ever (I know too many people with scars from hot beverages spilt on them when they were kids).
3. DS not to be taken to playdates with people we do not know. We are to meet the family at the weekend before playdates arranged during the week.
4. DS not to go in places where there are pets/other animals/smoking (we are an allergic family, DS likely to be allergic too).
5. no tv
6. no ready made food, no junk food and no eating out for main meals
7. DS to have culturally appropriate mealtimes (i.e. DS not to have had supper when returned to parents at 7pm)

Do we sound like the employer from hell or is this par for the course? All advice gratefully received

those hours don't sound terribly compressed to me. Don't most nannies work 8-6 and often 8-7?

My nanny does three 10-hour days.

and after all that, i'm surprised that bread and jam or a milkshake is seen as a good snack. ;)

36 hours over 3 and half days is the normal for nannies.

Little Ones Nanny Agency deals in bilingual nannies if that's what you're after.
Worth a look.
Hope you find somebody.

OP, are you sure you are entirely clear in your own mind what you are looking for? I don't think asking the nanny to spend possibly two hours travelling to a second-language playgroup plus the time actually at the playgroup is conducive to not eating out of the house.

I also think that while a nanny who does not speak the language might be prepared to attend a non-English playgroup once a week, asking her to mainly socialise with these nannies/parents and their children is a bit much. Presumably she will either not understand any of the conversation or the others will end up having to translate into English to include her? DH and I considered bringing our children up bilingually as he has dual nationality and speaks an (also!) lesser-known European language. However, we decided against it for the very reasons mentioned by another poster, namely, that I did not speak the language and hard as it is to be always on the same wavelength as your partner in parenting terms, it is doubly difficult if you don't understand what the other person is saying to your child and end up giving them mixed messages. You need to consider a bilingual nanny.

I don't think your hours sound compressed. Many nannies expect to work possibly 45-50 hours per week as they have to be on duty for their bosses working hours plus their commuting time. So what you are offering is really a 3-4 day week job for someone who would like some free time and reasonable hours and who will expect to be paid less than for a full-time job. A true compressed hours job would be expecting, e.g., 3 12-hour days plus a short day or 4 10/11-hour days where nanny has a free day in the week but is receiving pretty much a full-time salary.

Nannies often work 50+ hour weeks so 36 hours over 3.5 days isn't particularly compressed.

Nanny shares can involve a nanny looking after children from more than one family at the same time. That's a true nanny share, rather than a nanny having 2 PT jobs which dovetail.

Laquitar: you were right first time round...

Wow, where to start?!

Frakk has pretty much covered everything I would say.

But to add my tuppence worth: I would not be interested in your job based on what you're asking for. It smacks of PFB syndrome and micro management. Which when combined would make for an extremely difficult working environment for an experienced nanny like myself. You have every right to want your child cared for in a particular way but NO ONE will be able to do it just like you and I think you would grow to resent that.

You need to make a conscious decision to TRUST the person you hire to use their experience and judgement to care for your son in a way that means he is healthy and secure and loved. A nanny (a good one at least) will never endanger their charge and will always make decisions with the best interests and wellbeing of the child in mind. On this basis you should relax, let the nanny do her or his job. You can certainly ask for some of your requests to be met ie no smoking and no TV, fresh healthy food etc. But some of the things on your list will scare away the competent and capable nannies you'll be wanting to hire.

Wow, where to start?!

Frakk has pretty much covered everything I would say.

But to add my tuppence worth: I would not be interested in your job based on what you're asking for. It smacks of PFB syndrome and micro management. Which when combined would make for an extremely difficult working environment for an experienced nanny like myself. You have every right to want your child cared for in a particular way but NO ONE will be able to do it just like you and I think you would grow to resent that.

You need to make a conscious decision to TRUST the person you hire to use their experience and judgement to care for your son in a way that means he is healthy and secure and loved. A nanny (a good one at least) will never endanger their charge and will always make decisions with the best interests and wellbeing of the child in mind. On this basis you should relax, let the nanny do her or his job. You can certainly ask for some of your requests to be met ie no smoking and no TV, fresh healthy food etc. But some of the things on your list will scare away the competent and capable nannies you'll be wanting to hire.

Thought i would just put in my contribution from the perspective of an employer myself. I have had two nannies over the course of a year and a half so managed to learn a few things! Like you it was for DD who is a first baby and i employed them from when she was about 17 months. In regard to your points I would say

1.Completely reasonable. My nanny smokes but never when at my house and she is perfectly happy with this.

2.I do think this is a little unreasonable. Many people (myself included!) like a little caffeine to get us through the day. You have to remember nannies don't get lunch hours or tea breaks as such and have to take their sustenance on the job.I think you just have to emphasise to whoever you do employ that you are a little concerned about this and she must be extra careful.

1. Okay I think this is a little unreasonable and many of the former posters have a very valid point that this will mean your nanny will end up very lonely and isolated plus your son will never get the oppurtunity to mix with other kids and I think this is very important. When both my nannies started I let them fix playdates with other nannies and their kids, they just had to leave me the adress they were going to and the other nannies phone number. I also asked a few questions about these housholds e.g. do the parents work from home, are there other people in the house and decided on that basis. My daughter has made several little friends with the other kids who she is always chatting about and been on several fantastic day trips. Having got to know the other nannies I also let her be driven by one of them if she and my nanny are doing a day out with them. If a nanny is constantly isolated it is miserable for them and I think will also affect their motivation to be a fantastic nanny for your child. Also the parents of the other kids in question prob have better things to do at weekends than meeting up!

4.Okay I see your point here but does he have proven allergies? Of course if it really important to you then you must insist.

1. Again if you really feel strongly about

TV then of course this is fair, but you could compromise and specify time limits and programmes to be watched.

6.I totally agree with the ready meals thing and i think it is part of a nannies duty to cook fresh for their charges. I think the no eating out thing is harsh - just specify that you don't want them eating junk while out just as you don't want them eating junk when in. My nanny often takes DD out for a sunday roast as she works some sundays for me and she loves it, it's a whole little trip in itself!

7.Again it is your prerogative to specify when you would like your son to eat but wow past 7 pm seems late to me, my daughter would be going up the wall with hunger by then even with snacks - this may make nannies job harder and you should realise that and work round it with her.

I know it is so hard when it is your baby, you are putting so much trust in the hands of a comparative stranger! I was so anxious for the first few months but I had to learn to put some trust in my nanny and her professional judgement and it worked out so well. Thoroughly checking references can give you confidence - I spoke in detail to at least 3 of my first nannies employers and had such good references it really helped ease my anxieties.

I also agree that it doesn't sound to me that youare giving a nanny condensed hours, those hours sound fairly routine for a nanny. I employ my nanny on what sounds like condensed hours as I am a nurse and work shifts. So she works 13 shifts every 4 weeks, varying days, and they start at 7.30 and can go on until 9.30 pm so she puts DD to bed etc- But then she gets more whole days off so I would probaly classify that more as condensed hours.

Hope some of this is helpful!

Oh yeh just to add the nanny diary as suggested is really great. My nanny writes down what DD had to eat plus a summary of what fruit and veg for the day (generally more than I manage - she makes a real effort and DD will eat everything for her she refuses with me the minx!!) She records where she took her that day and who she met, what her mood was like, DD washing done or sheets changed - stuff like that, anything relevant really. I love reading it when I come home from work having missed her like mad as on the days I work I don't see her at all.

Just to add my experience - we have just started using a nanny for our son and I would never have considered such a specific list as you have - basically I felt we had to give her guidelines and then let her find her own way. If I didn't trust her to do that I would not have employed her. I also like the idea of ds doing things with her that he might not do with me - obviously within certain limits - but I try not to dictate things as I'd like her to be creative. In fact she is particularly creative around food - she cooks very different things for him than I would. We just told her to help herself from the fridge and to cook him veg every day. We leave money if she has to buy anything else. I have had very bad experience at work of being micro-managed and know that I would hate a list like yours.

Also, you being around during the day is likely to be a drawback in my experience, when my dh was working from home my son had much more trouble settling with our nanny, was constantly going upstairs to find him - if you come down to play with him in your lunch break he will then probably be unsettled again afterwards.

The six weeks holiday is something for you to consider because it isn't fair on the nanny to have to take all of her holiday when you want her to take it - so you might end up having to give her a couple of weeks on top of the 6 you are away for...

About the language, I think the only way to get a nanny who can really support your bilingualism is to advertise for it. We did that even though we're not a bilingual family! I had ten applicants to an initial gumtree ad for a nanny speaking Spanish - I felt it was an advantage as we got people we were over-qualified but whose English wasn't good enough to work in English here. We now have a Spanish speaking nanny we're really happy with.

About the playgroup - I would be flexible on this one, my ds hates travelling on public transport and I would never insist that our nanny took him on a 45 min trip anywhere unless they had no other option - it's just not fun for anyone.

Un giorno lungo con un piccolo bambino e nessun espresso? Penso che lei scherza!

other than the not smoking (which i dont do, never have and hate smoke so automaticlaly wouldnt dream of being in a smokey environment anyway)

i would not appreciate any of the other "rules", and would choose to work for more laid back employers....

i have always been allowed to have a cup of tea, eat out for lunch occasionly and visit other nannies for playdates etc, or places with animals without their being any issue at all

Sounds like a bilingual nanny ad is the way to go then.

On working from home, I do tend to work rather intensively, so currently when I work and DS is with the current caregiver I might see him for 10 mins over 4/5 hours (on top of breast feeds, but those I assume will be limited to morning and evening after he is one), surely that would be fine?

On the animals, as I have said before, it is not my personal obsession, it is on medical advice. My allergies are serious enough to have landed me in A&E and both DH and I want to do our best to avoid a similar fate for DS. I would expect anyone we employ to comply with the medical advice we have received and decided to follow. Obviously our house would not be best for an animal lover who would want to take our DS to see animals etc.

'Laquitar you were right first time around...'
This explains the bread issue. It took me 5 years to get used to the idea of using sliced bread from the freezer. Mind you, i love it now.

I agree better to go for bilingual nanny. How about placing an ad in that bilingual playgroup? Maybe one of the nannies is working on notice and will be free by january or works part time or knows a friend.

I'll probably not be here later so good luck and have nice journey tomorrow

I am a nanny of twenty years and would never even apply for your job, if you trust your nanny with your child why would you not trust her to pick friends. No tv is fine but i think it has it times and place, as does eating out occasionally. As for the hot drinks this is a very rare freak accident, would you rather leave the child in a different room while you had a cup of tea?

When I read this OP I thought you were a nutjob! I've read your responses to everyones comments though and see you're taking on board everyones opinions, which makes me think I misjudged you!

I think the no smoking, healthy eating, pets, TV is fine.

No hot drinks is OTT. Though the travel cup idea someone had seems like a good compromise. I've never been to a playgroup where they don't serve tea/coffee though so you may struggle there. Also people get take-out coffee and drink it everywhere (park,bus,tube,library etc). Your baby will be near hot drinks sometimes. Accept that now and things will be much easier for you! A good nanny will make sure he is a safe distance and that the hot drink is out of reach etc.

The playdate thing . Hugely OTT. I wouldn't take a job with this 'rule'. What are you worried about? Do you think the nanny will take him to a playdate in a crack den? I don't understand what your concern is or how meeting the other child's parents would help?

Eating out; I'm with everyone else. It's good for children to eat out from time to time and is sometimes necessary/most practical. I think once a month is reasonable in terms of taking him to a cafe, for example, but she may need to take his food with him and feed him 'on the move' more often.

A bilingual nanny does seem a good idea. Though if you struggle to find one, you could always take him to an Italian playgroup yourself on the days you don't work and she could take him to an English playgroup when she is with him. If he is going to be bilingual then it would probably be good for him to have friends from both cultures/language (as well as others) and not just socialise with the children of people from the Italian playgroup.

IME it will be harder to find a nanny with you working from home and popping in to see him at lunch time. Most of the nannies I know avoid 'working from home' parents like the plague!

Good Luck!

OP I would just like to share my nanny experience with you.

When my DD was born I decided to only take a short maternity leave for the sake of my business. However as a company director with HR background I approached my nanny requirements in a similar way to you. A list of must haves, nice to have, rules and guidelines. After quite a few interviews I found my perfect nanny. She was an experienced career nanny who understood exactly what I was looking for.

Unfortunately she only lasted 3 days when she developed a medical condition that required surgery and a long recuperation. The agency found me a temporary replacement who at first appearance would not have got through round 1 of the interviews, however due to the circumstances she was able to stay and demonstrate how well she could do the job and where my routine/rules could be changed for the better, she was the best nanny I ever had and DD thrived and met all her development milestones in advance of her peers.

We were all sad when she moved on and I have always been more open minded when recruiting.

Cindypin I agree with you I would not even apply for this job. I would hope that after 28 years of caring for children and a stack of glowing references to my name that I could be trusted not to scald my charges or introduce them to unsuitable playmates. Eating out once in a while encourages good social skills and doesn't have to involve junk food.

Of course I would expect to discuss what the parents wishes were concerning the care of their child but I would also expect my employers to trust my professional judgement and not treat me like a 15 year old first time babysitter.

Tavvy: thanks for the recommendation about the bilingual nanny agency. Will definitely give them a call.

About the bilingual agency - I contacted them but wasn't impressed as their fees are high and if you are only working part time (and therefore paying your nanny less) it seems like an awful lot relatively, think it was about 2 months salary extra! I'd just start with an ad on Gumtree- you have a major advantage over us which is that you speak the language you want so you can interview the nannies in both languages. If you don't get any good responses then you can just try somewhere else.

One final thought about the rules - I have been thinking again about what we did and in fact we wrote a job description into the contract which outlines things like wanting her to cook healthy food (no smoking didn't even occur to me as I never thought a nanny would smoke around a child, maybe I was naive?) - I think a job description is less patronising than a list of rules, I don't know about you but I don't have a list of rules at my workplace.