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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Support thread for those of us who are requesting an ELCS after a previous traumatic delivery

823 replies

withorwithoutyou · 27/04/2010 14:21

Hello everyone.

I have noticed a lot of threads regarding requesting ELCS lately, probably because I am in the process of trying to request one myself!

I just wondered if it might be useful for us to have a support thread where we can talk this all through as I know it can be a challenging process to go through.

Can I please also ask in the nicest possible way that anybody contributing to this thread can respect our desire for ELCS over VB? Thank you!

Anyway, I'll start - I have one DD, born 20 months ago by forceps after failed ventouse. She weighed 9 pounds 11 and I am concerned this one will be heavier! I am 30 weeks and have my first consultants appt tomorrow where I will be requesting an ELCS!

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Hevster · 29/06/2010 12:42

Hello ladies
Have just skimmed (2 hrs) through this thread as I have requested a consultants appt to ask for an elcs. Am rather stunned to be given 1 in 2 days time so fast trying to prepare.
I am 25 weeks now and really want to get it sorted as the stress is making my hyperemesis worse.
With DD I had chromic fatigue for the last 5 months of pregnancy (days when I couldn't even hang out the washing i was so shattered) which noone apart from my GP took seriously. My labour lasted 5 days and i spent the first 2 in and out of the hosptial with 5 min contractions (strong) and yet was only 1 cm dilated. Eventually on day 4 they decided to have me back and induce me (no sleeep now for 4 days) and 17 hrs later DD was pulled out with NB forceps (was cut and tore) in operating theatre and I was prepped for emcs in case they couldn't pull her out.
My argument is I don't want a repeat birthing experience of an instrumental delivery, I have chronic fatige again now and believe I don't have the energy to give birth. I mentioned this many times in labour last time and was ignored. I know all the stuff about 2nd births are often different etc but I just dont want to go down that path.
This morning the midwife tried to fob me off till 36 weeks but i explained that the worry was making my hyperemesis worse and she rang and got me the consultants apt.
I have my birthing notes from last time but I am panicing that I don't have a strong enough case etc anyone got any suggestions, ideas, points etc (even if it's no you'll never get them to agree)
thanks
Hev

crumblequeen · 29/06/2010 13:45

Hi Hevster. I was on the thread a couple of weeks ago to ask for advice about my case for an ELCS - birth sounds similar to yours. I am now only 10 weeks pregnant so not even mentioned it to midwife yet but I am pretty much decided that I am going to request ELCS too - my deciding point is whether my mum can take some time off work to stay afterwards when DH goes back to work - but I haven't told her I am pregnant yet so can't ask!

Anyway I have been writing some notes, which are more for my memory than anything else - I am not sure if I will send them in writing too when I get to see consultant but thought you might want to look to see if any points help you (obviously some points will not be relevant to you)? And anyone please feel free to comment on them!

Withor - good luck with your ELCS

crumblequeen · 29/06/2010 13:47

Points in Support of Elective Caesarean Section

During my previous birth, rotational forceps were used following around 6 hours of second stage labour, during which the baby did not turn (despite a small baby, optimal positioning throughout labour and no restrictive pain relief).

I feel that the second stage was badly managed, in that there was very little guidance given on pushing, or on the lack of progress. I was also not advised to try to urinate until it was too late and I was unable to do so, at which point a catheter was needed. I am understandably reluctant to risk a similar traumatic experience again.

I have several problems which have arisen from the previous birth, which are noted below:

  1. Previous damage

I have a persistently leaking bowel (toilet paper always dirty, even when not passing bowel movement), which suggests some muscle/nerve damage has occured either during the long second stage or the forceps procedure. I obviously do not want this to get any worse and I feel that even the pushing in an unassisted and quick vaginal delivery would cause further damage and weakness.

In addition, I can still feel that the episiotomy site is tight and damaged skin, for example when I squat down or move in an awkward position, and I do not want further damage to the perineal area either through tearing or episiotomy.

The pelvic floor strength I do have needs to be preserved to avoid further long term problems.

  1. Previous recovery

Recovery from the previous birth was very poor, which I feel is due to the damage sustained from the invasive forceps procedure. For example:

a) I was unable to walk comfortably to the local shops (a ten minute walk) until after four weeks

b) Antibiotics were required to treat episiotomy infection

c) Sexual intercourse was extremely painful for over 9 months

I am requesting a C-Section as, although the short term recovery is going to be hard and I understand the risks, I feel that the long term recovery will be more certain and quicker. Also, further to point 1, as the damage will be in a different area, I feel that a C-Section will not worsen existing damage.

  1. Future risk of instrumental delivery

Given the above factors, I am unwilling to consent to the use of forceps again. I have been very anxious about this throughout pregnancy, and even making the decision to become pregnant again was clouded by the thought that this may mean a risk of instrumental delivery again. I could not attempt a vaginal delivery without this anxiety being at the forefront of my mind and I feel that this "mental block" would increase the chances of intervention/emergency C-Section being needed anyway.

I am also aware that there are some circumstances where rotational forceps may be the safest option (for example where the baby has descended too far for an emergency C-Section to take place). In light of this, I am also requesting an elective C-Section in order to remove the risk of forceps being used again.

  1. Future births

I am not planning any more pregnancies after this one so there will be no future issues in respect of risks of multiple C-Sections.

ealey · 29/06/2010 13:55

Mookie - just another take on what you might expect after the c-section regarding feeding. Although I've heard that loads of babies are very mucousy and don't feed much, both mine and a friend's experience was that the baby wasn't mucousy and just fed voraciously and constantly (in my case, solidly between midnight and 7am the first night). And in both cases it wasn't a problem of no milk, we both continued breastfeeding just fine. My friend said that her hospital told her that c-section babies are often like this at first to kickstart your milk supply that much harder (I've no idea if this is true). I just wanted to give you a heads up on this scenario in case it happens to you and midwives harangue you about it! My midwives were fine and just left me to it, giving me sympathetic looks every now and again!

Hi Hevster, your previous birth sounds identical to my first. You didn't say how bad your tears were, mine were 3rd degree. I'm afraid I don't have any very good advice, other than to say that I just kept pushing the fact that I was worried about long term damage if I was to pursue another VB. The various consultants I saw were either ambivalent or discouraging, but they were prepared to give way if I was determined. In the end I was helped out by my baby who kept lying transverse, but I think pushing the long-term health concerns angle could only help your argument. Good luck!

Hevster · 29/06/2010 14:19

ealey thanks for reading and your thoughts, i don't think my notes say the degree of tear they just show a diagram! I will write a proper case tomorrow and as you suggest push the long term health concerns.
Crumblequeen thanks for your thoughts too, I will take points 3 and 4 and reword them to aid my case

mookle · 29/06/2010 15:42

Hevster welcome to the thread, nothing else to add to the excellent advice already given, just wanted to wish you luck with it and sympathise, I know the anxiety of waiting to find out the decision.

ealey thanks again, all this info really helps.

Hevster · 29/06/2010 17:26

mookle thanks for the sympathy, it helps just to chat on here!

mookle · 29/06/2010 17:32

it does, Ive found it a really good place to use as a sounding board and hear other stories and get support when you are having a bad day. Lots of luck with your appointment.

also hello gatacre just realised I never said it when you joined!

mumtoblaire · 29/06/2010 19:48

Crumblequeen - Your notes are really good and very similar to the concerns that I have. They seem to pack more of a punch when written down. I am going to write mine out before my 2nd consultants appointment on 15th July.

After how well my 1st appointment seemed to go I basically have got it into my head that I am having an ELCS when I am 39wks. I have even packed my bag for post C-section.

I think it will be very difficult for them to decline my wishes. With the help of this thread I am now very confident in my concerns/issues. I know exactly what I will say and not lat them get a word in. My midwife is on my side so that can only be a good thing.

Good luck everyone with your appointments

ealey · 30/06/2010 12:55

Interesting - the WHO has now dropped it's recommendation of a limit on caesareans, saying they should instead be performed as and when needed: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/10448034.stm

Might be a handy piece of info to have up your sleeve if consultants start quoting targets at you, as mine did!

mookle · 30/06/2010 12:57

Hope everyone is well today. Its my big day tomorrow, have to be on the ward at 8am and wait to see if any emergencies come in (in which case I will be bumped) if not could be in theatreat 9.30 (unlikey I guess)

Wish me luck and I'll see you all on the other side!

Hevster · 30/06/2010 15:36

mookle good luck!

Hevster · 30/06/2010 15:44

ealey just printed off your link - fantastic info ta.

gateacre1 · 30/06/2010 16:53

Good luck Mookle hope it goes well!

I have a few questions again!!

I have cystocele and rectocele and urge incontinence after my 1st birth

Can I argue that a VB would potentially worsen the conditions I have in the longterm?
Recovery after 1st birth was almost a yr and Im still not back to 'normal'

Im was offerred surgery after first birth but declined and I dont want the consultant to say you have to go for a VB again and then we will fix you afterwards.

Can I argue that a CS would reduce the risk of further pelvic floor damage and damage to bladder structure and also the psychological damage of flashbacks during intercourse etc?

Just wondering if there are specific arguments I can use for my case.

( im so worried about it, we are really considering paying privately for a ELCS- but obviously if the NHS agrees that would be preferable)

does anyone else get insomnia worrying about it?

Lovethesea · 30/06/2010 18:09

Mookle - good luck! Looking forward to hearing your story when you get back.

gateacre- I also argued for my elcs on the basis of preventing worsening damage to my pelvic floor (had 10 months of physio), my urge incontinence/bladder (saw urogynae until 6 months postbirth and ongoing weakness there) and vaginal pain/damage (saw gynae again at 7 months post birth as v.painful still to try and have sex).

I will try and refind the links I read on it. I didn't have to argue too much given the issues I'd had so hopefully you won't either. Did you tear badly too? There was a recommendation for women who tore badly and had symptoms to have an elcs discussed.

Other things to consider are whether you want more children after this delivery (as a c-section can cause more issues getting, staying and being pregnant for some women) and also the longterm impact of your current damage especially post menopause when hormonal changes can further weaken the pelvic floor.

Here's one canadian article on the need to include the pelvic floor in decisions on an elcs ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC99315

And the Royal College of Obstetrics guidelines on 3rd and 4th degree tears - section 12 has the guidelines on future deliveries www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/uploaded-files/GT29ManagementThirdFourthDegreeTears2007.pdf

mookle · 30/06/2010 20:37

thanks for the good luck messages, am now officially terrified! Busily checking and rechecking bags

NanBullen · 30/06/2010 20:45

well had my booking in app today and the midwife warned me not to get my hopes up about getting an elcs. she said that the hospital (the rosie in cambridge) is actively trying to reduce the number of cs performed even if you've had a previous cs!

I had a vaginal delivery last time so i've no hope I've got to wait til i'm 16 weeks until i see a consultant (i'm 10 weeks now) and the midwife just recommended crying to see if that works!

I was all hopeful when i was told that i had to see a consultant but am feeling a bit down now. I think i'm going to get fobbed off.

Hazeyjane · 01/07/2010 03:50

Mookle - you probably won't see this now, but good luck for later on today, so exciting, can't wait to hear how you get on. Is it my turn next?

NanBullen, the consultant I saw is very anti cs, and the hospital I am going to is also keen to keep their cs figures low ( a friend was told she wouldn't get one despite her baby being breech). The consultant was not agreeable to me having a section at first, but (thanks to this thread!) I was able to arm myself with enough information to help my case. Please try not to feel down, write down all your fears concerning a vaginal birth, make sure you are aware of the risks of a cs (the consultant seemed to make her decision, when she realised that I was not taking the decision for a cs lightly), and if you feel tears coming on use that strength of feeling to help you.

Hello everyone else - I am finding it impossible to sleep in this heat, especially as dd1 crawls into bed with us every night, she is like a little hot water bottle.

mookle · 01/07/2010 07:10

thanks hazeyjane - leaving for hospital in 20 mins eek see you all later!

ealey · 01/07/2010 09:07

Hope it all goes well mookie!

Another good link regarding the WHO and CS rate story: www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article2578299.ece. Think you need to register to read The Times now but it's free. The quote by Bryan Beattie are very telling - he's a consultant at my local hospital. It's so infuriating!

mendipgirl · 01/07/2010 12:13

Hi all, joined the thread a while ago, but am now pregnant, only 6 weeks so early days, but when is a good time to mention to my midwife I want an ELCS? I had an EMCS last time, so shall I tell her at my booking in appointment?

Lovethesea · 01/07/2010 14:44

mendipgirl - I would mention it at your booking in so you can get the ball rolling asap. I found it so much less stressful to have my elcs planned early and to have agreement long before an official date even. I had a letter from my consultant following DD's birth agreeing an elective would be available were I ever to be pregnant again - I took it with me to my booking in along with some notes I'd made on my concerns about attempting a vb and the reasons I felt an elcs was a better option for me this time. The mw's I saw agreed with me and got my consultant to pop his head in and he just double checked that was my firm choice and agreed it again then and there.

Later I was moved to another consultant who I met with and she agreed to it too, but it really helped my anxiety levels to have it in place from the start. Other people here have had much harder fights to get agreement so worth going in prepared for calm arguing/sobbing hysterically depending on how you feel about it all!

Hevster · 01/07/2010 14:56

well ladies, I saw my consultant this morning and am now on the verge of tears constantly. She listened to all I said, apologised for mess that my labour was a last time and then refused me a c-sect. I kept pushing for it and persisted in expressing my fears (basically i refused to back down) but she wouldn't be shifted. Her defence was totally based on the theory that 2nd labours are not usually like first!. She is arranging for me to see a senior midwife to talk through my last birth and said I was welcome to get a second opinion. She also said she would ensure I wasn't left to struggle as long as last time but i can't see how she can do that.
Have requested a second opinion now so hopefully I will have more success there. I will also take the midewife apt that she suggested but I don't see that it will make me feel any better about a vb.
sorry for not being encouraging to those of you who haven't seen a consultant yet - the battle goes on!

mendipgirl · 01/07/2010 15:41

That's terrible Hevster. can you try another hospital and see if they are more sympathetic? I agree that the fact she says "she would ensure I wasn't left to struggle as long as last time" is crazy, you can't depend on that, what if you go into labour when she isn't around, what if they are really busy, they can't promise this. I feel so sorry for you!

withorwithoutyou · 01/07/2010 15:56

Hi all, just a quick update to say we are home from hospital.

Eloise was born at 12:09 on Tuesday. Section went really smoothly, care at the hospital was excellent, staff were absolutely fantastic.

I was on my feet 5 hours after the section and into a private room. Eloise is so contented and happy, section was absolutely the right choice for us - we can't get over the difference between how chilled out she is after having poor DD1 scream with a sore head for all of the first week.

Biggest shock of all was that Eloise only weighed 7 pounds 14 after DD1 coming in at 9 11! She is still on the 75th centile though so not really the tiddler she seems to us!

Thinking of mookle today, will update later with full story but can only say what a brilliant delivery it was and recovery is going really well.

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