why are people so against epidurals

[porcamiseria]

I am just curious, as the general vibe here (MN) and with the NCT and some midwifes is they are a bad thing.

I had one as was induced and literally could not cope with pain. I wont go into the whole story but its the usual ventouse, stitches etc. But baby was healthy and fine

My point is for me the epi was a godsend and the intense pains were not bearable.

If it happens again, I will have an epi if I can't cope. am due August, so its pertinent for me

It upsets me rather this attitude that they are to be avoided, as if you DO have one some people might feel like a failure?

CirrhosisByTheSea so sorry to hear about your experience and yes my MW was totally and utterly brilliant in every way.

Fortunately the care from everyone I came into contact with at the hospital I went to was wonderful and I felt wonderful.

My DH and I were on a big natural high for weeks after the birth.

I think one to one care is the key. It is ridiculous that women can not have that if that is what they want.

TheAngryWasp - Hmmm... that is quite interesting... but on the otherhand science has made childbirth less likely to end in death or terrible terrible trauma. Humans, unfortunately for us women, have evolved in such a way that the whole giving birth side of things is a bit on the... errr... tricky side!

I can see your point but I really don't think, as long as he has safe sex and is pretty keen on the other person, that the boy in this picture you paint is at that much risk compared to the potential risks involved for a human female and her child during labour.

CirrhosisByTheSea - What a completely deeply horrible experience. I really feel for you.

CirrhosisByTheSea - thats shocking being left like that.

Actually I was pretty shocked when I watched OBEM as I didn't realise so many women where left alone in hospitals in labour, even though I have 2 DC.

I had both my DC in MLU's and other than the very first bit when I arrived to have DD (1st DC) when I basically got to hospital too early I had one to one care thoughtout. The MLU I am going to this time says they try as hard as possible to provide one to one care for all.

I mean whats the point in going to hospital if no one is looking after you there - you may as well stay at home for longer.

mumnwl I stopped watching OBEM when I saw women left alone during labour.

" I like to be able to say 'I had a natural drug free birth'"

Why though? Do people really ask you about your birth experience that often?

I can't recall anyone ever asking me a question that would lead to me having to give a detailed description of my birth. That said, you just may know some very curious people!

I agree iamwhatiam - it's a bit odd to want to say it, because, realistically, how many people are ever going to ask or care!!

However, I totally understand people wanting a natural birth, and knowing for themself that they had it - perhaps that's what the poster meant?

Look, the bottom line is, if you NEED an epidural, then your experience is worse than somebody's who didn't NEED one.

The things that led up to one person NEEDING one and another not doing so are really the crux of the debate.

So, you should absolutely pat yourself on the back for getting through childbirth without drugs as it is no doddle and very VERY intense, but your ability to manage it CANNOT be compared to anybody elses experience.

I have given birth twice. The first time I was so traumatised that I would walk around in a haze wondering why there were others pushing babies around with an air of normality when my 'normal textbook labour in a MLU' had left me shaken and with mental health problems.

The second time ('normal textbook' again and in a MLU again) I was RUNNING around on day 3 on the biggest high in the world wondering why the world wasn't full of serial childbirthers.

Don't compare your birth with anyone elses and don't EVER assume that your experience of childbirth or the level of pain you had to deal with is any reflection of someone elses.

Can I confess something?

I don't really understand people wanting a natural birth. I mean, I can understand people being happy that they haven't had to be cut open anywhere to get the baby out.

But I don't understand the big desire to have a natural birth, and I never have. I know that makes me a minority on here but thought I'd mention that as upthread people were saying that people who go to NCT classes do so because they want a natural birth.

Not me, I went to meet people.

I do wonder what it would be like to have this burning desire to have a natural birth, but I feel quite lucky not to be dicated to by that feeling.

teafortwo It was only an illustration of how the environment can affect the birth outcome, and that putting a woman in a place with lots of medical solutions and disturbances rather underminds her ability to believe in her ability to birth the baby herself safely, instilling fear, doubt and confusion.

I find it quite shocking too, that the higher risk a woman is, the lesser her entitlement to a good environment, even if she is expected/encouraged to give birth 'naturally'.

iamwhatiam -

I don't think there's anything to confess!

I don't even know if you're in a minority!

Speaking from my own personal experience, and from what friends have said to me, it's just a feeling of getting informed about childbirth, the various forms of pain relief and interventions etc, and then making an informed choice about where/how you would like to give birth, while also being aware that sometimes, complications will arise in the pregnancy or labour which change those plans. For me, that meant aiming for a natural birth in a MLU (that part was totally about environment - I don't like hospitals or medical experiences so try to avoid them!). I wanted to avoid the associated risks of intervention.

I honestly think for most people it's nothing more complicated than that. I wouldn't say I had a burning desire to experience shocking pain. I just wanted to have as non-medicalised birth as possible.

Nothing judgemental, just personal preference.

I suppose some people want a natural birth because it's er 'natural' and we have been told many times that 'artificial' is bad bad bad.

There are also people who, given the choice wouldn't particularly want to go through with a natural birth but aren't prepared to accept the risks that the alternatives present.

Then there are those that are tuly truly well researched and practise and practise and spend months and months setting up the environment, support, skills, tools etc with the aim of giving themselves an 'enjoyable' experience that they would be robbed of with intervention. And there ARE people who love giving birth, - truly. And there is something that happens (amazing rush of hormones) during and after a calm undisturbed natural birth that cannot be replicated by giving birth any other way.

Hmm, well I was informed too! But natural birth didn't appeal.

I'm talking more about those people who think they're a failure or whatever for having an EMCS - that they've let themselves down.

I don't understand that at all.

I had a shit birth but I never felt disappointed in me - just pissed off generally about being denied pain relief and having had somebody cut me a second fanjo.

But never disappointed at missing out on some kind of dream birth.

I sometimes wonder if the burning desire to have a natural birth is similar to that feeling when you really, really want to get pregnant.

So that's what I kind of liken it to in my head when I hear people talk about it. Because lots and lots of people have no desire to have bio children at all so must think that broody feeling is a bit bonkers.

I just don't think I'm the earth mother type tbh. I could never understand why people get so excited about how much they love breastfeeding either. I mean, I did it, but it was just the optimal way of getting milk into the baby for me, absolutely nothing more than that.

I couldn't love my DD more, but I never felt I needed oxytocin to help me love her, I guess is what I'm saying.

Ah - angry, that last line covers it for me I think, they are in it for the experience.

Yeah I always found that oxytocin thing a bit odd, - like I have to be filled with self-made chemicals otherwise I'd abandon her or something.

But, I suppose it is a bit like you love your DH 24 hours, but you can feel all Mmmm and contented with him just after sex. It's just a nice feeling that makes you feel happy about the world that removes your care for anything other than that other person for a little while and slows you down to enjoy it.

I can't describe the high I felt after DS's birth. I feel sad that some women never get to experience it.

And of course a benefit that I didn't need sewing up afterwards and that no one needed to look at my fanjo at any point during the whole process.

But its personal choice and I understand why its not for everyone. Everyone should be fully informed and able to make their own decisions AND most importantly get the support they need.

The truth is that I may as well embrace natural childbirth. I arrived at hospital "not in established labour" - certainly not in pain, with contractions only every 10 mins or so and he was born within 2 hours. It could be quicker this time. Even with DD, I arrived early in hospital (not dilated at all) and she was born within 5 hours.

But I can see with a very long drawn out labour I might have made different choices.

I was no. 2 the first time round.

Then I was kind of 2-3, knowing that 2 hadn't worked. But I got the full 3 and if doing it again I'd definately go for 3 and try to improve the experience.

Even so, there IS something still quite appealing about having an epi on arrival and reading Heat until the baby comes out though. Unforuntately there is NOTHING appealing about sitting in a room with bright lights with needles stuck in me, people prodding me, increase risk of damage to my fanjo or to my abdomen and increased risks to my baby.

I'm holding out for the home mobile epidural.

Sort of yes and no iamwhatiam.

When I had my first baby, I experienced an amazing rush of hormones which was incredible. I also felt incredibly amazed at what my body had been through, and astonished that I hadn't died! (Like a lot of people, I'd reached that point during labour when I felt death might be a preferable alternative). However I didn't know that I was going to experience that sensation beforehand, it was almost like a by-product IYSWIM, so although some people may actively choose natural birth on subsequent occasions, because they know what to expect, I don't think anyone can really understand it first time around.

My dc2, incidentally, was a csection under epidural for medical reasons. I didn't experience that same 'high', but I don't think it affected my ability to bond, or the rush of love for my baby - it was a different feeling.

DC3 was a natural VBAC - again, I wouldn't say I chose natural specifically for the 'high' afterwards - it was more a case of feeling that as there wasn't a medical need for a csection or epidural, then I didn't want to choose those options with the associated risks.

Home mobile epidural! That would be fantastic!

violethill I don't believe in a birth hierarchy
I believe that some people have positive births and some people have negative births and what KIND of birth you have does not necessarily decide if its a positive or negative one

I just don't like being told that what happened to me doesn't exist because
1 - I'm proud of myself, DH and DS for getting though it
and it was what it was, don't tell me I'm lying
2 - I'm so grateful that the safety nets were there to catch me and DO bang on about how interventions like epidurals are not always just "wants" but often they are "NEEDS" because I think that its often forgotten just how bloomin lucky we are to have access to all these interventions. To say interventions are always 'chosen' is belittling how lucky we are in this country and time to have them because they are often NEEDED to preserve life and quality of life

As for women who've had natural births. I think their birth stories are as valid as anyones. I don't have envy issues or hierarchy issues because actually I DONT think a natural birth necessarily = a more positive experience. I have friends who've had horribly traumatic natural births that I don't envy one bit.

I am as interested in the individual birth stories of people who've had natural births as much as any one elses, what I'm NOT interested in is those that generalize on births in general based solely on their own experience (i.e. saying that in all cases a natural birth can be chosen using PMA, just because THEIR birth was manageable on PMA)

On a total tangent here, are you allowed and epidural with a VBAC? My friend was told she couldn't have one (and didn't).

iamwhatiam - m not sure about 'allowed' but I was encouraged to go without, because one of the ways they can assess the risk of possible uterine rupture is that pain is constant, between contractions as well as during. So if you're under epidural, the pain is masked so you're not going to be able to tell the midwife exactly where the pain is/how it feels.

(That sounds horrendous, writing about scar rupture, but it's actually only a very small risk.)

I can't imagine why that would be?

a GA can be given 'over' an epidural if needed?

Violet, yes that's what she was told - that it was so you could feel if there was a scar rupture.