The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

i can only speak from my own experience, but i think dd's birth was made much more unpleasant than it would have been if we were at home.

4 cm dilated when i went in. I saw an endless succession of midwives and doctors, all of whom were basically nameless, some were very good communicators, others treated me like shit. All i know is, if one of the good ones had stuck around i would have been less stressed and i would have made progress over the next 12 hours.

12 hours later, having had bugger all to eat (at their insistance), exhausted, keytones in my urine, they stuck me on a drip so i couldn't move from the legs up position and broke my waters.

When i finally got the urge to push they kept me hanging around for about 15 minutes, wouldn't let me push. It was fucking horrible. Then 2 episiotomies. Then of course they told me to push and i didn't have any urge to do so (felt like my body had told them what it thought of their advice) and i had dh, and 3 midwives holding my legs up, making me push against my body's will. felt so wrong.

Why the hell someone couldn't have just had a quick look up there when i was begging to push, would have taken 2 seconds, and i reckon dd would have come shooting out, rather than taking a further 1 hr 45 mins and having them threaten me with a C-section 'you've got 45 minutes to push it out or we're operating'. How's that for an inspiring pep talk at the beginning of stage 2?

I think that there needs to be more research into how safe it is to go "overdue". At the moment the medical profession in this country seem too scared to go past 10/14 days and induce you regardless of any other factors other than the date they believe you are due on and because they have no way of telling if the baby & placenta are all still okay.

I felt very preasured into having my son induced and I was made to feel as though I was completly barmy for even suggesting that I wanted to wait a couple more days and that i was putting my baby at a very great risk! This was despite being monitored twice a day and everything being completey fine. Apparently monitoring only shows that the baby is well during the time they are monitered and "as soon as you get up off the bed the babies condition could become critical" (the midwifes actual words!)

I spent every waking moment on the internet doing my own research about inductions and trying to justify what I felt quite strong about. And in many European countries they allow women to go to 43 weeks before induction and suprise surprise the intervention & c-sec rates in those countries are lower!

My research didnt help my case though! I was still induced although the hospital were so busy I had to wait until I was 16 days overdue, so I feel someone was watching out for me! My son was also covered in vernix which is very unusual for a baby born at 43 weeks as their skin is usually very dry.

Number 2 is due in May and this time if I am induced again, it will be because I feel it is the right thing to do and not because of some midwife following a calandar.

Sparklingsarah - I had my baby taken away from me for hours, not able to hold her nor feed her. I know how you feel and I know that it was wrong on thier behalf. I wrote a Long complaint letter, had an investigation into everything that happened and guess what I got... A Sorry letter, apoligising for the things that went wrong and she even commented at the bottom of the letter ' Sorry your stay at * Hospital was the worst time of your life'!!!!!!

How unprofessional. It aint just Midwives its the whole NHS ante-natal, maternity and aftercare that just WRONG!

I say they need:

1. More Community Midwives
2. More Birthing Centre's in cities and towns.
3. More 1 to 1 care between Families and Midwives.
4. New policies on intervention if necessary or not.
5. Alot more correct communication between midwives, GP's, and Hospitals.

Anyone like to add???

I feel like setting up a charity to be able to offer parents more choices and fill the gap between pregnancy, birth and aftercare.

ABetaDad, come on, breastfeeding past one year is NOT extended - the world average is 4.2 years! What would you give the baby instead? processed cows' milk? THAT'S the messed up bit. Even the government recommend BFing for AT LEAST 2 years.

Charleymouse, that?s brilliant, I might copy that somewhere so I can use it later.

Electra, that phrase annoys me. It might be a small part of parenting, but it can still leave people scarred.

Frasersmummy, the 17 a day includes SIDS so it?s not all to do with birth. You?re right, 17 a day is bad, I?m glad that SANDS have started the ?Why 17?? campaign and I hope it makes a difference. WRT your question on a mum?s own feelings I don?t think it is always to do with outside pressure. I know for me that the birth of Tink left me with Birth Trauma and it wasn?t to do with expectations. I feel/ felt (not sure at the moment) that I had failed because I wasn?t even there when my daughter was born! How can a mother not be at the birth??? Also birth is a natural process, people feel it should be easy so when it goes ?wrong? it can leave you wondering why you were unable to do something so easy.

SmuttyNuttyTaff if you want a section then your back would probably prefer you to have a general and trust me I?d far rather labour with a bad back than have a general! I?ve had a very similar time to you by the sounds of it. I didn?t get the choice, I had to have a section which has aggravated my back and I wasn?t able to have a spinal because of it. My first messed my head up a lot, I suffered from birth trauma and cried 2 ½ years later when my obstetrician spoke to me about booking me in for my next section because I was still suffering. The second has answered some questions for me and I feel a little better, but it?s still hard.

Chellesgirl funny you say that about the monitor, everytime I was put on a monitor Fifi turned to breech and my contractions stopped. Your story reminds me of my SIL when my second nephew was born. She over heard a MW running them down and say ?I bet they even smoke in bed?! Mum was dragging her back!

PrettyCandles, I love reading old parenting manuals. Somewhere in the last century a lot of changes happened WRT parenting and all the things that are seen as AP or whatever are just people moving back towards the way things were before some odd changes happened.

TreeDelivery, I agree with you but I think when you weren?t able to be mobile, for example, then you will always wonder what would have happened if you were. If you did keep mobile you?re not going to wonder what would have happened if you?d been strapped to the bed. It?s better to be involved in everything than have it all taken from you. I did have to have another GA with Fifi, but it happened a lot slower and I was involved more in the decision. I?m not saying the GA was brilliant but the difference between being involved was noticeable.

TamTam29, it?s not research that can be done. My placenta failed when I was premature, I was very ill because of it. My sister on the other hand was born at 44 weeks and wasn?t much bigger than me. I liken it to baking. You follow the recipe exactly, put the oven on exactly the right temperature but sometimes it is ready sooner and sometimes later.

I think people who are talking about women trusting their own bodies not working are missing the point that we don?t know how to anymore! I don?t think that it would ever be a good idea to completely cut off medical support, even centuries ago when the midwife was an older woman in the town they would have had some sort of monitoring during the pregnancy. It would be daft to not have any check on the baby when we can. The problem is when some doctors are too quick to intervene.

If anyone has ever read The Water Birth Book it explains how a baby should be born, naturally you don?t push, you adjust your position and baby comes ? I did it with my first not knowing that. If you think about it women give birth in comas and even under GA and can?t push. Pushing happens when you?re not able to sink into that place in your head and labour is messed with. I think that when you go with it that labour isn?t that painful. Although I have had two sections I had to labour both as I was premature and they needed to know that yes I really was in labour before they whipped my baby out. I don?t think that any of my three labours were what I would call painful, I followed my body and I put labels on the pain, I told myself that it was just for a few minutes then it would be over. With Fifi I was in labour for 11 weeks but would never have called it painful. I asked for pain relief for my back and the staff never really took me that seriously with my contractions because I said I wasn?t in pain. When she was actually born they had to rush me in because they hadn?t realised how far I had gone. Before anyone tries to say small babies are easier, I recommend you read the Bliss website. The smaller a baby the harder it is to deliver.

We need to be adding T-BRAINS into all threads about intervention! In the majority of situations there is no reason to not use T-BRAINS and if there isn?t time then you know it?s serious (I?ve had a crash section and there was no way we could have even stopped to ask if there was Time let alone gone onto Smile!) and have to realise what you want is thrown out the window to save one or both of you.

(sorry this is long, it wouldn?t let me post yesterday so I copied it into word and it?s grown since!)

Thank you keels26 I might track you down in future! I will probably be having this baby at St Thomas's so hopefully they will be a bit more with it.

tamtam I was also given the spiel about how the baby's condition could decline after the monitoring. A consultant also lied to me to make me accept induction as it happens, I didn't end up being induced, and DS is fine.

'If anyone has ever read The Water Birth Book it explains how a baby should be born, naturally you don?t push, you adjust your position and baby comes'

TinkerBellesMumandFiFi2 - I felt this, I knew what my body was meant to be doing. I always listened to my body and tuned into my baby and what she was doing.

I never felt the urge to push, but I did feel her coming down. Then the midwife told me to push hard and I was like 'I cant'. She was like 'you have to get this baby out' and I was like 'fuck off' (though I didnt say anything) and ended trying to push against my body's will and I tore.

Next time Im having the homebirth I ordered the first time around, taking it easy in the last few weeks (as I worked up until a week before dd was born) and Im gonna listen to my body, not what anyone else is telling me to do.

I agree that intervention is necessary when they completely know you or your baby is in great danger. And I would be thank ful for the 'right' intervention. Just not for one person who you dont know to be telling you to have/do anything you dont want.

I did say at some point (pages & pages) ago that the 17 a day is both stillborn and neonatal deaths. I think i shortened my spiel later when someone annoyed me ... sorry if i confused or upset.

I went to the hsopital around 10pm the night before I lost my DS , they monitored me for half an hour and declared he was fine.. by 7am the next morning he had died. so I can see where the "monitoring is only valid there and then comment comes from"

I think though medical staff in general have to look at the bigger picture... do more measuring scans check for blood flow through the cord etc, look back at small anomolies through the pregnancy etc

I think they ought to start listening to mums. from both perspectives... both if mum think things are fine or thinks something is wrong

I would say it is not all so black and white

I was having a home birth, but did not progress, and I mean did not progress, 2 days at 2cm, then I started to develop pre eclampsia and had to go in for induction.

Was forced to lie on my back as they needed a good heart trace from baby. Baby had so far been facing sideways (just) and I felt him go back to back. When I got up the contractions were in my back. So much for three months sitting on a birth ball, being upright, hands knees the lot, all gone.

Waters broken, then a drip, gas and air on drip for six hours, then had to have an epidural, dilated finally, pushed, baby's heart rate dropped.

Taken to theatre, rotational forceps and managed to push him out while numbed ready for section.

All seemed well but after 12 hours he got very ill and we discovered eventually he had sustained brain damage.

My consultant said in a meeting later that I probaly would be able to find someone who would say I should have had a section much earlier in the process. And something in me wishes I had, but no one knew when the damage was done and crucially for me a fab registrar discussed every step with us and kept a close eye on how my son was doing. They did not want to do an unncessary emergency section and I would not have wanted them to. I am not sueing the hospital, this is one of the things that happen.

I have been advised to have a section next time. I will also have lots of extra checks. And I am dreading it and mourning the natural birth I will never have. But this is what medical intervention is for.

Sorry this is long.

Sorry I have not got time to catch up properly but would just like to clarify the Bowel Movement text I posted was not of my own writing. I'm afraid I can not remember where it is from and do not have a reference for it but like you said TinkerBellesMumandFiFi2 I thought it was brilliant and copied it into word for future reference.

Will hopefully catch up over the weekend and post further.

I never really understand why people say scornfully that medics are only pro-intervention to avoid litigation. If that means litigation because mother or child have been damaged by birth process, surely it's better to avoid that?

madmouse

Thats a terrible story... you must be really angry and sad. No wonder you feel scard about the next pregnany but when the time comes you will find the inner strenght to cope

Like I have said several times its all about the right intervention at the right time.

Tink - you have such wisdom. I guess for medical staff it can be very very hard to gsrasp that that women actually would prefer to be let experience it all, the good and the bad, even if all the signs point in an opposite direction. So to use my example - better to have tried the active birth and water birth and end up with intervention, than to have had the intervention earlier and feel I hadn't given it a fair crack of the whip.
I wonder how many medical staff get that? Most of them will have most of their experience in the medical world - of course - and their role is very firmly to diagnose and fix, quickly. It is a revolution in thinking that they have to undergo in Obstetrics.
But in honesty, I have heard many women voice anger and annoyance at not having intervention sooner, coming from the 'I was left ages and stil nothing happened why didn't you section/induce/etc sooner' angle. Antenatal clinics actually get many many people coming in asking or working towards induction as early as 30 to 34 weeks, and certainly around term.
As a person in the service I would really advise any woman to give a clear outline of your preferences. Don't rely on us to guess, assume or work it out! We may get it horribly wrong!

/madmouse - how do you feel about your story? If you would like to share I'd be interested in your feelings, as would we all. Not everyone finds revisiting helpfull however. So either way your story is powerful. I'm sorry it happened to you.

Frasermummy - I believe the vast majority of service providers agree with you. Right Intervention at the right time. I just don't think there is always a clear 'right' or that everyone agrees on the 'right'. There in lies the problem.

To which I have no real answers - bummer.

Treedelivery, Frasersmum, I am happy to share some of my feelings. First of all I am not angry, not with the hospital and not with the God I believe in (not anymore, I called Him some names when ds first fell ill).

I feel I have been very well looked after in hospital and that this is one of those things that do happen (and I am a lawyer lol). I have heard terrible stories of negligence but mine is not one of them.

In fact when I am pregnant again I will ask my fab consultant at the JR in Oxford to take me back, despite bein 1h15 drive away. He researches how babies are affected by brain damage, when they need to come early etc, so I feel safe in his hands.

I am still dealing with things now. ds is 13 months now and recently I have been feeling low and having fairly graphic flashbacks, seeing things again and feeling again like I did then. It is tough, but friends have been fantastic.

I also do feel very blessed, as ds is doing fantastically well, have a look on my profile if you have not already. Despite the long list of things that he was supposed to have wrong with him we only have mild cerebral palsy to deal with, meaning he is sitting but not sitting himself up yet, not crawling or walking yet and doing everything with one hand. He is very bright clever and determined and I am very proud.

Yes, I am scared to be pregnant again, scared to have a section and scared more than everything that the next one too will go blue in my hands. Most of all I am scared about how scared and worried i will be . Good friends know this and have already announced that they plan to drag me through it .

By the way my consultant has said that it 'is not entirely inappropriate' of me to want to labour. But I am not allowed to go overdue, to be induced, to have anything but a fast labour, to have another back to back baby, to have a temperature, to have the slightest sign of pre-eclampsia, to have any heart rate issues with baby, ie so many factors heading towards an emergency section that I rather have an elective and try to make things as calm as I can.

Sorry, that is long and rambling

its not rambling madmouse its a heartfelt story from a very strong mum

It sounds like you have made your peace with the hand you were dealt in a really short space of time and you are to be applauded for that

Your consultant sounds a lot like mine.. determined to guide you through your pregnancy with as much help as he can

Of course you will be very scared during your next pregnancy but it sounds like you have a good network of support around you and you will be suprised what strength you find.

We seemed to have digressed from the point but hey sometimes its nice just to natter and offer a little support to each other

Madmouse, You have a very strong peaceful soul - all power to you and all the very best for your pregnancy.

When I reflect on the things I've seen I sigh and zone out you know. There are cases [I was the lead midwife at one that happened in front of my eyes] where there is no warning, no intervention to be had quickly enough, no skill to be used - there was just this event like lightning striking. I saw it happen. I have flashbacks to that case very often.

Sometimes those things happen antenataly and no one is there to see or witness them. So hard when there can be no absolute answers as to how or when the 'event' took place. The labour management is pulled to shreds in meeting after meeting and still we can't deliver an answer to desperate parents. That can be unbearable, though you seem to have reached or seem to have an in built acceptance of that.

I'm very pleased you feel safe in your consultants hands - and I am not surprised you are proud of your glorious boy. You should be super-proud of yourself for your strength.

Here here frasermummy. If we could divorce real people and real stories from these debates we wouldn't actually like each other or this place [in the cyber sense]

Madmouse - just wanted to say how much I admire you for posting your story, and your attitude towards your ds's birth. He is completely scrummy btw.

I'm not sure if you are pregnant again? But what you say about fear of another pregnancy and birth struck a real chord with me and I just wanted to let you know that when I was 20 weeks pregnant with my second child I more or less demanded an elective caesarian, explaining to the consultant that I just could not risk lightening striking twice, and I was very concerned and would be desperately scared in natural labour, and he agreed to the section with no argument. He was kindly and respectful in other words. And, indeed, the elective csection was extremely calm and a very happy, positive, even joyful birth experience for me.

Good luck to you.

Madmouse, your little one is gorgeous, and you sound incredibly strong.

Treedelivery, I've seen your pain in the eyes of the people who cared for me and DD. Sometimes there just are no answers. Like Madmouse, I'll always be grateful for the care we received. DS was already under the care of DD's paed and he asked us if we'd rather see someone else for DS after DD died. Hell no, was my firm answer.

The 17 a day stat does include neonatal deaths, as Frasersmummy said. I think it's 10 stillbirths and 7 deaths in the first month of life a day. My DD's cause of death went down as 'unexplained neonatal collapse' - so SIDS by any other name.

I'm still digressing from the point but this thread has really made me think. Which is probably a good thing.

No I am not pregnant yet. Have just decided in the last few weeks that I am more broody than scared

My consultant has indicated that I will probably be allowed to dictate the terms of my next labour.

Feeling very for those of you who lost a baby. My biggest fear with ds for five days until they said he would not die

Ooh, and Chellesgirl, I'd like to add to your list. I'd like to ban the phrases

'failure to progress'
'poor maternal effort'

for a start. I'm sure I'll think of more.

Apologies Madmouse - am jumping the gun for you there!! Don't blame me if you concieve tonight!

I said this on some other thread on similar theme as it were - that the story of birth and birthing is an amazing string across the human race. Every woman had a story, even women who do not birth they have a story as to the reasons behind this. Old old ladies in homes have stories, and young girls have stories. Stories are heart breaking, warm, joyous, scary, I think all the stories are all these things at once.

I don't know how such a large lumbering giant as medicine can react in a sensitive way to this magical thing.

madmouse - you are already strong and your baby's birth will make you stronger whatever the type of birth. caesarean birth can be a great experience but will make future births high risk and carries the usual risks of any surgery. you've probably heard all this already and i'm not anti-surgery at all. if you choose caesarean it will be the right choice for you.
i nearly died from bloodloss after my dd1 was born by caesarean after 29hr medicalised obstructed labour.
i will be forever grateful that my daughter was born healthy but i had awful PND and couldn't fully bond with her for several years. each year on her birthday for about 7 years i was in floods of tears. it was not only her birthday but the day i nearly died. i needed further surgery 6 years after my caesarean to divide adhesions which made making love very painful. As a health carer i know these side effects are not uncommon.
the reason for disclosing this is that during my 2nd pregnancy i was unsure of the best plan for birth. my consultant was brilliant and said it was up to me. i discussed with the midwife counsellor and couldnt decide until 4 weeks before the birth.
i figured that i couldnt be that unlucky twice and that 2nd labours are usually easier so the odds were in my favour. at worst i would be well monitored and have a swift caesarean earlier because of my past history and scarred uterus. i felt i would never know if i could give birth if i had a planned caesrean, as this would be my last baby
i chose to labour and went to hospital after 3 hours of labour and had a wonderful birth. i kissed everyone including the midwives. i was high as a kite for weeks and no PND meant i was able to cope with 2 children whilst partner was working away. it did not erase memories of the first birth but left me feeling whole again.
best wishes for a peaceful birth.