The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

I think when suddenly you are being told to do things that seem to go against instinct, and you are being bullied and bossed around, you feel very vulnerable and disempowered, which is why women get so upset at the infamous cycle of intervention if they think it was innecessary.

Similarly those women that have a very fixed idea about what their birth experience is going to be like feel disorientated if it varies from that.

I have to agree with biskybat about that awful doctor his posts are not based on facts "Having access to a good midwife (not ?madwife?) will not reduce the demand for analgesia or epidurals." there is plenty of research to the contrary. he has a personal vendetta against midwives particularly the brilliant Virginia Howes.
I believe midwives and doctors can make the difference between a good or bad birth experience. we need more midwives, as the profession is struggling with so little staff. Good Midwives often leave the profession due to stress of not being able to provide a good service.
we need more funding for hospitals to employ staff and encourage midwives back into the profession. www.kentmidwiferypractice.net has a possible solution which will provide one to one midwifery care for women.
Sorry for the rant but I feel passionately that families given one to one care from a known and trusted midwife generally feel better about their birth experience whether intervention was needed or not.

Thats v.true boffin mum. I had an idea that my birth was gonna be amazing and that my hb would be incredible.

But when I ended up in hospital with midwives i didnt know, and the birth didnt go to 'plan' then I think thats what made me so upset and lead to the PND.

Now I have no expectations for my next child and whatever happens happens - though as naturally as possible.

I agree. My daughter and I would both have died if I had been left to have a natural birth. I am eternally grateful that I live in a country where I have access to surgeons.

I chose to have an elective section for my second baby as I was still so upset from my daughters birth experience. I felt under huge pressure to try for a natural birth though.

After my own experience I would never, ever want to give birth anywhere but in a hospital. I know homebirths are looked on as brilliant and I love the idea, but if I had been at home with a midwife delivering my first baby chances are very high that I would have not have reached hospital in time for emergency intervention.

I think it is a bit like people who won't take painkillers for a headache. Why not? If the medical assistance is there, why not use it!

I think not having a birth plan is the best plan. no birth can be planned as it is something not under our control. It is a good idea to discuss with your birth partner and midwife your preferences if birth is straighforward, but always prepare for the unexpected.
Birth is something that our body does, not our brain! And nature sometimes has it's own plan.
My planned homebirth for DD1 ended in caesarean for brow presentation but I knew caesarean birth was a possibility. What affected me most was the lack of support or explanations from staff on a very busy labour ward. I spent hours fearing my baby would die, not being dissappointed that my birth didn't go to plan.
I teach antenatal classes and advocate chellesgirl's attitude to take things as they come.
the best birthplan I ever read said "I plan to give birth as quickly and painlessly as possible." And she did!

I don't understand why people are still citing genuine complications that they have had and then suggesting that some MNers are saying the intervention should not have happened / making those who had them feel bad????

My first labour was not complicated but it was made complicated by unnecessary intervention. My body was doing fine, but I did not trust it, I panicked and allowed myself to have an unnecessary managed labour which traumatised me.

I would not have objected to intervention, had my baby been growth restricted, breech, not doing well in utero, or any other complication......

"Boffin's post makes me want to ask the question why do some people feel concerned about the way their birth happened??"

Errr, because having a difficult, highly medicated, complicated birth (even when the end result is a physically healthy mother and baby) can lead to postnatal depression, post traumatic shock, and early cessation/failure to establish breastfeeding. FGS, until a couple of years ago the leading cause of maternal death in the UK was suicide in the year after birth. It's only slipped down the list because obesity has become such a major problem in the UK and is now linked to more maternal deaths than suicide.

"Like I said there are no medals for giving birth with no medical help"

Yes there are. My first birth involved loads of intervention and I had many problems afterwards from perineal and pelvic floor damage caused by my instrumental birth. Not to mention weeks and weeks of difficult breastfeeding and a distorted and partial memory of my precious baby's birth, caused by being given loads of pethidine. My second birth took place at home and involved no medical intervention and no pain relief. Despite the fact my baby was 11lbs I had no perineal damage and no problems breastfeeding. I also felt on top of the world after that birth - it was the best night of my life. There are benefits to having a straightforward, intervention free and pain relief free birth - women aren't stupid and they're not martyrs. They wouldn't choose to try for natural births if they thought there'd be no benefit for them or their babies in doing so.

electra, I cited them for two reasons:

1. It is possible that I didn't need intervention at the point that I took it. I may have laboured spontaneously, I could have asked for regular CTGs and scans to assess the condition of my baby. So whilst IUGR is a medically sound reason for induction, my IUGR was not established enough for it to be the only option, or even definitely the most advised option - it was all in the balance, and my opinion as the pregnant one tipped that balance towards intervention.

1. I genuinely believe that the majority of people who had a healthy baby following intervention, but a bad labour experience, will see that as "unnecessary intervention caused problems", whilst for those who had a healthy baby and a good labour experience are more likely to see that as "intervention saved my baby", etc. It is very subjective, and it is almost impossible to stand removed from the situation after the event, because there is no way of knowing exactly the outcome if intervention had been sooner/later/different/non-existent for a lot of cases. Yes, the clear cut do-or-die, but those aren't what is up for discussion.

Im somewhere in the middle. My baby would most certainly have died if it had not been for the surgeon who basically told the midwifes to "Stop arguing about stockings, Im getting this baby out" in her own words. For her quick actions she most definitely saved my little girl who had developed bradycardia, and for that reason I will always be exceptionally grateful for her intervention.
However, the doctors decision to induce me 2 weeks early, when my babys head was nowhere near my pelvis, I think is the reason that she got distressed. Admittedly I had had high blood pressure for 3 weeks and they discovered that I had protein in my urine, which made them diagnose pre eclampsia. I understand the risks of pre eclampsia and would have done anything possible for my baby but I just wish they had gone about it differently.
Im certain that if the position of my baby had been considered before induction then they would of offered me a caesarean, or not considered induction at all. Nobody ever seems to speak to each other in hospitals!

For example, in my first pg told the doctors that Im a haemophillia carrier (affects blood clotting) and then at 25 weeks a doctor told me I should have an abortion because my son could die, even though the condition is very mild. Hes 8 and perfectly fine by the way.
In my second pg the doctors knew all along about my 'condition', hassled me for blood tests, wasnt allowed to have an instrumental birth etc then when I haemorraged after having an ecs they told me I should of told them I had haemophillia! All that hassle Id had for years and they couldnt even be bothered to read my notes when they had too!

I do beleive that most midwives and peadiatricians/consultants believe medical intervention is necessary.

If I had been able to stand up during my birth I probably wouldnt have torn. Stitches wouldnt have been necessary.

The consultant and consultant peadiatrician who was 'caring' for my dd decided for themselves - without even reading my notes or asking me that my baby would have to stay in hospital because she had jaundice, was loosing weight and was not feeding properly.

Maybe this was because she was Lactose intolerant and her little body couldnt take the formula that they were not meant to be feeding her but did! (as i was BF)
Even though she had trouble breathing and was sicking up after every feed no one said anything and she ended up in NICU.

After my dd was poked with so many needles so they could check her blood sugar levels after EVERY FEED...and to check her billirubin levels, I was so upset seeing her go through all this I finally argued with the leading consultant at the hospital and eventually made her give me the self-discharge forms. Before I signed them another consultant came into the room to give dd the once over to declare that she only had mild jaundice - and being a nursery nurse myself I knew everyhitng about newborns etc... and as this consultant checked her over she asked me and my partner (the cheek of her) how old we were!!!!Where we lived, what jobs we did - I understood where she was coming from - making sure that this baby was going to a good lovong safe home (and she was) but it doesnt excuse her rudeness as she also said she thought I was 16!!!!!!!! I was actually 20. She then decided that my dd had an enlarged spleen....(something that 95% of 3-4 day old babies have) Well that just made me slap the papers on the table and sign there and then.

I was threatened with social services by one cocky midwife and she also said she would get security up on the ward so that we couldsnt leave with our baby!
Then when we were getting ready to leave she 'whispered' " that should not be allowed, how can they take thier baby out of hospital, they are stupid parents" ... well lets just say she heard my partners mouth then!

After we got our dd home, she fed wonderfully and when the HV came to visit us the next day she actually said we did the right thing. ( id also like to add there ws about 20 other things wrong with her birth and aftercare that I complained about)

The NHS is failing within the labour wards and delivery suites. Something needs to be done.

Yes, but lou - in that situation you wanted the intervention because you felt it was appropriate (not because it was 12 o clock iyswim) - which is still you knowing what was best for you in that situation. I had a lot of intervention, for no other reason than I lay down while I was having contractions and consequently didn't know how to cope with them other than to ask for every drug available. In my case, I don't think it was particularly subjective. The hospital staff said that my contractions stopped because I had had an epidural and they also said that the probable reason for my PPH was the injection I was given to expel the placenta.

Reading all these posts I would [rather bravely for me] caution against one thing - assuming the grass is always greener as it were.
So for example, having a labour that was too too painfull for a lady, and oh how she wishes she had an epidural and avoid the flashbacks. Maybe, but 'aint necessarily so. Maybe putting the epi in would have been hell and featured in the flashbacks.
The same with the other side of the fence, someone wishes to goodness they hadn't accepted or felt forced to have an epidural, then they wouldn't have had to lie in bed and have a forceps and have stitches. Research would support that overall, but again, it is very possible to tear even standing, to need forceps despite being mobile. Less likely statistically, yes. However when we talk of our own stories, our own stats are the one's that matter. I hope this makes sense.
But [again, from me] this is simplistic and I don't mean that anyone hear who has a birth story they are unhappy with should just adopt this - I'm sure your stories are much more complex.
I only say this as a vauge sort of comfort to myself really, given my first 22 hour synt and epi marathon! Maybe I would just have had had a 33 hour painfull marathon had there been no synt and epi's!!

Whilst I'm here and we are on the topic as it were, I enclose a link to my fav charity - www.wfmic.org/about.html

I think a lot is down to luck, baby's position, factors the medical staff can't do much about, but could potentially screw up further through intervention. So a lot of birth experiences of course will have aspects you wish had gone differently. I wish I'd progressed a bit more normally, instead of really, really slowly. However, I think it would have gone quicker at home as the hospital doc was coming in every hour pressuring me in a really nasty way, almost as if I was deliberately not dilating just to inconvenience her!

In the end I had a mobile epidural but it didn't slow things down and I didn't tear at all, despite baby being OP (I did insist on lying on my side though, not on my back). In fact the doctor was right and I needed synotocin to speed things up, as like previous poster I was onto day 3 and still only 4 cm, and waters had broken ages before and was GBS positive. without intervention it might have been another 24 hours, but outcome would not probably have been bad.

On the other hand, dilation might have gone quicker had I stayed at home not being pressured. It's hard to know in the end what caused what.

just to add, I really feel that being as informed as you can about what is supposed to happen to your body during the actual birth, as well as about all the medical interventions and what/why they are used for, really helps. At least I was able to make a really informed decision even during the labour, as I felt confident I understood the risks and benefits, for example knowing I didn't want to have the synotocin without an epidural in place, knowing I would not lie on my back to deliver under any circumstances etc..

It's a good question but the evidence - and there is plenty - suggests that once you have one medical intervention the likelihood of having and often then needing more escalates. In general if mum and baby are well there is no need for medical intervention. Should this change and either is in danger then we are fortunate to have access to medical support - and some of the best in the world. The problem is that many health professionals are no longer taught how to support women without a medical intervention thus rates of induction and c-sections are unnecessarily high. That is the crux - is it necessary, show me the evidence to suggest I need it AND it will help then you decide how to proceed. And beware, rates of maternal and fetal morbidity have dropped mainly through improved hygiene not medical intervention. ;-)

I have had 2 children and delivered a few myself as well.

The problem I feel is that the intervention is offered much too quickly. Women are not encouraged to listen to their bodies anymore.

My first child 13th April 5 am I feel a punch like pain in my back - 2 weeks before due date I think oh bollox that's labour then!

I was stopping at my mum's to look after my nan whilst some family issue elsewhere were going on.
So I get up go downstairs get a drink and go into the garden walk about a bit decide to call the labour ward get told no it's FAR too early you've got weeks yet! come in if you must but we'll send you back so I think well I AM in labour but yes I've seen ladies go for days intially so I decide that there is little point waking anyone up but I'm far too excited to sleep so I take the dog for a walk.
8 am we come bck magazines and orange in one hand and an ice lolly in the other
My dad is awake and I casually inform him I'm in labour he gives me a hug makes me eat some breakfast and lets me "be with myself"
and so the day goes on my mother flapping and telling me how much it hurts etc.

I ring the labour ward again it's stinging now contractions feel forceful I feel the need to be seen, told to amble in.
get my stuff together have a cuppa whilst waiting for a taxi POP! there go my waters! so I decide 999 is a better option
medics arrive by now
I'm biting the table edge they decide there's no time to get anywhere so prepare the sofa and ring for back up.
I feel remarkable on a high a bit frightened but ultimatly magical contractions rush like waves someone grabs my hand and I push my daughter into the world
the cord is round her neck they unhook it and have to jolt her to breathe I feel terrified the whole world stops ?I hear a mew and a cough .... all I can see is a mop of jet hair
I feel amazing no words describe that feeling
I hear A GIRL! 1300 precisely - they all laugh 1300 on the 13th!
the medics all cheer and radio through for transport
a midwife arrives and immeadiatly I'm jabbed so I can deliver the placenta no obe asked nor told me my baby is removed taken away in a car I'm not asked nor told she doesn't even give her name I'm simply interfered with I was not bleeding out contactions were still gently rolling so I could have delivered it naturally I wasn't given the option of feeding my baby.
so, I'm taken to hospital taken to a sideroom 4 other midwives charge in start cleaning me up insist I need stitches when I didn't no mention of baby I'm too out of the game to ask finally after I managd to get a drink tell them to get the hell off me I'm left alone I thought my baby was dead.
4 hours later a cleaner came by to see me sobbing she organised a midwife to bring my baby to me.
None of these things should have happened I had given birth, torn a bit and we were both fine.
I found it very hard to manage in the early days I kept imagining she was going to die
for the first week the recurrent dream that a mistake had been made she was lost after all happened everytime I slept.
I sought counselling in the end so gawd knows how others manage when their experiences are FAR FAR worse than that.

6 years later I had my son I had to argue and insist on another HB find out my own info because the midwives wouldn't give it swop midwives to get one that had at least some notion of support.
I had to see the consultant obs to "approve" my request - what a waste of time!
I went into labour on 31st May I had my dinner had a bath rang the on call spoke to the midwife organised someone to come out.
20 mins later I had progressed to more than a little look the midwife arrived ran up the stairs in time to leap across the bed and catch my son his cord was round his neck he simply snipped it through handed him to dad and let me deliver my placenta helped me turn over handed me my baby went and ran me a bath and let me wash and clean myself up stripped the bed and put clean sheets on and helped me back to bed helped me feed him.
Made us all a cuppa jotted some notes and left us all to sleep.

Women have been birthing since time began, yes some have been lost along the way but I may not be popular for saying this but,sometimes things aren't meant to be.
Midwives do a wonderful job every minute they bring life into this world and make every set of parents the happiest people in the world.
However their obsession with controlling the way the most natural thing in the world is getting beyond a joke
routine episitomies, more than a certain time labouring and it's a c section routine induction of labour which has been proven to hurt more constant monitoring not allowing more than one person in a room - it's my birth pushing fathers to one side when all I may wnat is the person I love and partly responsible for all this to be next to me.
All the rushing about and insisting everything is a drama?

If I'm happy labouring for a day or so why not I'm comfy ME! the one that is doing this!
The after effects of a baby being dragged out of your body is very long lasting on anyone involved it's horrifically traumatic
If more were left to us it wouldn't be nearly so painful or require so much after care my old midwife a friend now has told me the effects of having to counsel women after a traumatic experience has grown PND is atrtributed to the force used.

So it's not anti intervention per say it's empowering us to listen to our bodies and stand up for our rights if say an emergency section is required and the need is felt then fine you must make your choice but if you feel that you can go on why should you feel rallied into having surgery?

keels26 - very interested to hear you are also a haemophilia carrier (mild)

Exactly my situation. Had a girl last time so no real issues with her birth, had her at home.

Am feeling a bit chicken about number 2 but am worried if it is a boy that the whole thing will be mishandled, they won't read mynotes and they might do something that could harm a baby boy with haemophilia (instrumental birth, vitamin K injection)

How was your care handled? Did you see a haematologist in pregnancy as well? Were the midwives aware that certain things could not be done? Sound slike your experience was shambolic and I am worried and considering going private!

Sorry for hijack

sparkling sarah

You cant tell a mum who has carried her baby for 39 weeks and 5 days that
"sometimes things aren't meant to be. "

My son was meant to be and is not here purely because an incompetent midwife didnt do the scan properly

Yes our bodies are built for supporting a baby and giving birth to it but when things go wrong the medical profession should do what they can to make sure both mum and baby are healthy not just shrug their shoulders and say "things are not meant to be"

I cant believe someone who has delivered babies could make a crass comment like this

The thing is, when people talk about unnecessary intervention usually they're NOT talking about life-saving procedures or things that the mother has asked for, they're talking about being hooked up to a monitor and made immobile for a low-risk birth when there is really no need, being told to get on a bed on your back when that's not the most useful way to try and labour, being given an episiotomy when they didn't want one and might very well not have needed one given time, being given unnecessary internal exams which make people feel that they're not doing it right because things aren't going quickly enough, being hurried into having an epidural right now because the anaesthetist isn't available later on etc etc.

I don't agree that 'some things are not meant to be' in the sense of not using medicine to help and save babies who might otherwise not be here, but I do agree that taking a baby away from her mother for HOURS after what seems to have been a perfectly okay birth is really not right and is an abuse of power.

And I'm sorry to hear about your son, frasersmummy. I think parents who lose a child have the hardest thing in the world to cope with.

Sorry sparkling

I thought I had commented on having your baby taken away for hours.. its atrocious.. I can only imagine what was going through your head during this time. I hope you complaned about this

Hi Susie, it is unusual to hear of another haemophilia carrier that isnt one of my sisters!. The care I received during my pregnancy wasnt great but hopefully it was just bad luck.
I saw a consultant with both my pregnancys who said I wouldnt be able to have an instrumental birth and that the baby would need the vitamin k injection afterwards. The midwifes were aware but didnt seem to know much about the condition to be honest with you. I did have a big sticker saying no instrumental deliverys on my notes so hopefully you will get the same. I had to have regular blood tests to check my clotting level but luckily for me mine are always quite good, hopefully yours are as well.
My DS is 8 and a perfectly healthy boy, he doesnt seem to be affected by it at all, same as DD who is 1. My nephews have haemophilia and bruise quite bad when they get hurt, but thats really all the symptoms they get. They are otherwise very healthy.
I hope everything goes well for you, try not to worry too much, if your haemophilias only mild Im sure your childrens will be as well. Good luck and Im always somewhere on mumsnet if you need anybody to talk too about it.

frasersmummy - so sorry to hear of your loss

keels26 - indeed!! Nice to know there is someone on mumsnet Like you my clotting levels have always been good, my father is very mild so I don't think it will affect them too badly other than a bit bruising.

I was told the baby should have vitamin K orally so that is interesting.

Thanks for your advice and I cannot believe what the doctor said about abortion! How ignorant. I have been offered an amnio if it is boy to see if he has it (50% chance) but I am not going to have an abortion so it is irrelevant really.

Did they test your son after birth?

Again sorry for the hijack!

Susie, have heard that the vitamin k can be given orally but both my children had it injected, not sure why.
The 'consultant' who suggested the abortion also told me that I could be at risk of having aids because in the past some haemophiliacs were given infected blood during transfusions! As I was 17 at the time and had never had a transfusion decided to just ignore him from that point on. Actually complained to the hospital about it and went to St Thomas's haemophilia centre so that they could write a letter giving the hospital guidelines on what they should do regarding my pregnancy. All it basically said was the no instrumental deliveries.
They did test my son 4 days after his birth but that was because he had a big lump (haematoma) on his head due to the position he was in during delivery, and they were worried that he was bleeding. His levels were really high (125) I think which is great and have never had him tested again. They wanted to test my little girl but I refused and said I would have her tested if I had any concerns. Didnt want her to have unnecessary pain when she should only be a carrier anyway. You should be given the option to have any of your babies tested in the future.
There is a 50% chance of your male children having haemophilia. In my family out of 4 boys theres only 2 who have it and there both brothers.
Hope this helps!

Induction for me with DS (my first) led to difficulty bonding, painfl sex for over ayear and an constant angry feeling. I also felt I le thim down by not being able to give birth naurally.

DD was born so quick there was no time for any pain relief. Had two great midwives who knew exactly what two say and when.