The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

Thanks green You have put very well what I have been trying to say. I think I sounded too harsh at times.

This is also anecdotal but my Mum who was herself born at home and comes from a culture of home births was against the idea of me having one. You could hardly say she was socially conditioned. She just believed there were more advantages to a hospital birth, many of them involving comfort funnily enough. Also, she had all four of us completely naturally and urged me before giving birth to not be opposed to pain relief because back in the day if she could have had it she would have!

Also one of her friends who had a home birth regretted it because a horrid midwife was sent to her and there was nothing she could do about it. I get this feeling sometimes from pro homebirth women that they are suggesting that all the midwives who are sent to women's homes are lovely and extremely competent and the one's in the hospital are dreadful. I know in general very experienced midwives are sent to homes but that can't guarantee that your wish is their command.

I reiterate that I am not against home births but just wanted a more open discussion between the pros and cons.

And you are welcome to be open minded and its a good thing MollyFloss. I recon like myself - alot of women have been hurt by a hospitals policies and staff. And I agree with you that if you give birth at home on the NHS you can have a horid midwife sent to you. But you can also tell them to fuck off out of your house and request another.
When I was planning my homebirth I prayed that the midwife who was doing my antenatal care would be the one to come to my house at that special time. Though she also told me she could be with someone else and id have to expect anyone. Unfortunately I didnt get that homebirth. I never know what the odds would have been and dont dwell on it either. i just know that next time a independant midwife will be for me. Even if I have to pay £3600 for her. to have that one to one care will be so much more important to me and my DP. if anything was to happen during my homebirth and I or baby have to be rushed to Hospital, fortunately i know the consultants that will be delivering her.

I think the main point to make here is that all women should be able to have a choice, about everything that goes on during pregnacy, labor and aftercare. Interventions shouldnt be done unless the mother is asked, and also debriefed on the full situation. The whys wheres and whos. I think a lot more hospital births would be more pleasant if this was done.

Chellesgirl: I think the independent midiwfe is going to be a worthwile investment for you next time, it is just such a shame that you have to fork out so much money because you can't count on the system.

Starlight: There is definitely a huge lack of support with BF and I think most of us would agree on that. I drove myself out of my mind trying to bf. My baby wouldn't latch on and got very dehydrated after two days and had to stay in hospital. I started intense expressing and gave the baby every drop I had. For a few feeds I was recommended to give her a little top up of formula so she could build up her strength. This didn't bother me as I was giving ever drop of breastmilk I had already. What bothered me was giving her a bottle in case she got used to it and wouldn't take to the boob after that (we had spoonfed her some though and given her some with a syringue but she really needed larger quantities to get her strength up). Over night she put on 100 grams, enough for us to be discharged from hospital and I stopped the formula immediately and continued expressing (my milk started coming in from the expressing but didn't fully come in for about a week!). In the DD only had a total of 150ml's of formula but it helped her get back on track and I think it was a good call. I continued expressing for a week before she took anything from the boob. I hired a hospital grade pump and someone to live with us for a few days (the investment was well worth it).

The thing is that noone ever really discussed how baby's could become dehydrated while bothMum and baby get to grips with bf. I though this

Of course severe dehydration is rare but I the quote "People are very cagey about saying anything that might give breastfeeding a bad name," is very interesting.

the scariest part of me was when I found out my baby was dehydrated. I thought this was rare when in fact it is quite common in breastfed babies. Like with some rpo-homebirth women not wanting to discuss any of the possible downsides of homebirths, some prod BF women are similar. It is better to have open discussions about the upside and the downsides of all these matters so that women can better prepare themselves and thus probably in the case of bf will continue.

Again, more support is needed from the system but also a less one-sided argument from the pro breastfeeders so that women have a realistic idea of what may happen.

In the end I bf for 10 months and only stopped to ttc (no periods at all and for a while after) but would have happily continued. I was hell bent on bfing and anyone around me might have thought I was going a bit mad I was so obsessed with it. However a less obsessed woman may have thought 'this is abnormal, I'm giving up'.

Just reread that - tons of typos, sorry. I meant to say that I found this article interesting.

Well done to all those of you who breastfed. I struggled for 8 weeks with my first... I liked doing it but had no help at all I was sooo tired and was threatened with the Mother and Baby unit unless I sorted it... I went straight onto formula for fear of being locked up again...
Second time around I wanted to be different. I wanted to breastfeed. But the same feelings came back (i think due to lack of sleep). Again the Mother and Baby unit hung over my head and after 3 days I gave in and bottle fed...
I look back and regret it... My theory is that women have been breastfeeding since the beginning of time... Its the most natural thing in the world.
My Midwife was good though she wanted me to be at home the second time and be relaxed (i'd been away for so long) she said not to put myself under unessesary pressure.
Still I see my friends who have babies the same age as mine (nearly a year) and they still breastfeeed...

"Again, more support is needed from the system but also a less one-sided argument from the pro breastfeeders so that women have a realistic idea of what may happen"

I think that the title of this article is very misleading. Dehydration is a serious problem caused in the main by breastfeeding mismanagement by health professionals, NOT by breastfeeding per se. The fact that it happens so often is down to the medicalisation of childbirth and poor postnatal care which makes establishing breastfeeding so much of a challenge for women in this country.

standanddeliver Do I have to clap you again

Oh go on then!

clap, clap, clap, clap !!!!!!!!!

"Dehydration is a serious problem caused in the main by breastfeeding mismanagement by health professionals, NOT by breastfeeding per se"

Dehydration is caused by babies simply not latching on and not getting enough milk and mothers struggling with that. The system does not cause this problem but it fails as it does not provide the care to help these women and babies so they can succeed with breastfeeding. As I said already I had to hire someone privately to help me (so obviously the system wasn't much good for me). In fact the health system strongly encourages women to breastfeed but doesn't have the support infrastructure to support women when learining how to breastfeed.

"The fact that it happens so often is down to the medicalisation of childbirth'

Actually, there are plenty of women who have had a natural homebirth who struggle with breastfeeding. I am not denying that there are serious problems with the system, I know very well there are but the fact is that a bottle fed baby will unlikely become dehydrated - of course a bottle fed baby will miss out on all the advantages of breastfeeding as well as the mother!

"There has become something of a religious affiliation to breastfeeding," he added, "and perhaps a desire not to rock the boat for something which is rare.

All, I'm saying is if there were more open discussions from the pro-bf people about the initial possible difficulties a woman may face when breastfeeding (instead of the one sided rant on how fabulous it is), then perhaps women might realise how common these problems are and not feel like a rare case and give up when it happens to them. The only downside I heard about bf before I did was the pain. In the end I had no pain at all but a baby who did not latch for some time which in fact was far worse in my belief as it worried me greatly. It would have been good to know in advance that many mothers have this problem. Maybe, it is up to the system to inform me but I also feel a little cheated by some pro-bf people on MN who went on for months about how great it is but never mentioned these issues... When I talk about bf now, I try to give an open frank account of how it was for me and that despite all the problems how it was well worth it.

Anyway ladies, I am going to bow out now. It has been a heated debate but a very interesting one nonethless and I have learnt a lot, thank you.

I just found out I am pg so as not to obsess too much about the first three months (I mc'd before) I am going to give MN a miss for a while.

Have a lovely weekend,

Molly.

Just to say - if you're still there - congratulations Mollyfloss! And good luck. And thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread as it's genuinely changed my attitude in a positive sense.

Congratulations Mollyfloss

Thanks! I'm chuffed

Right, I'm outta here now. Bye!