The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

Im seeking legal advice and going to speak to GP about how i feel, birth trauma etc... Hopefully I can get something done.

It seems a fairly standard response.

the paed assessed the baby , and she must have seemed well. sometimes babies can and do collpase when they have seemed well. it happend to one of my clients recently, i had left baby and mum all happy adn well, baby at the breast, everyone happy, then got a text early in the morning to say baby had gone blue and was in SCBU. it can happen. it does not mean that anything was not done or done wrong.

it seems to me that you have a lot of trauma and upset there, and it needs dealing with

your GP should refer you and you can contact either the birth trauma association or sheila kitzinger's birth crisis helpline.

the problem is that when things are not done at a birth, , it is not like you can say, never mind we'll do it again enxt week, it is done and over and that is hard to deal with

have not read all the thread so apologies, chelle , if i have missed other parts of your letter and complaint

Chellesgirl: I think you are right to talk to your GP and whoever else you can about this as it is going to be therapeutic for you and will help you deal with the birth trauma. When you say you want to get something done about it, what exactly are you hoping for? A sort of inquest into the procedures at your hospital in the hope hat this won't happen again?

I think really I just want to talk to the Head of midwifery as I dont think she really understands what they have put me through because of thier incompetence

yes lulumama. you need to read the rest of the thread. No way should they have let dd back up to the ward with me, she was grunting. Not breathing properly and wouldnt feed the first time around.

The pead said she could come up on the ward with me. Then she gets a stay in NICU. Then the same pead told me my daughter had severe jaundice. The same pead then said I could go home, the same pead put a dirty bloody glove in dd's mouth. Im sorry lu but its not acceptable. If they never left dd on the bed to start with and walked out there would have been no need for all of it.

And there is alot of hurt there too. Within me, but I know malpractice when I see it. Im a nrsery nurse qualified to look after babies on wards, and my mom used to be a midwife. And she also knows that none of this should have happened.

the call the hospital and make an appointment to see her!

arrange a meeting, take a bullet point list of the issues you wish to raise

you can then take it to a formal complaint

re legal advice? why? unless you have suffered a tangible & quantifiable loss that was due to act/ommmission either deliberatly or negligently, you won;t get anywhere ...

An lu if they had listened to my plea of not wanting to have the monitor,or lie on my back for 6 hrs straight without being able to get up when begging, dd maybe woul not have been so distressed and not able to breathe.

negligents - this hospital is full of it.I have already started a formal complaint taking up 6 months. And I get this letter.

a dirty bloody glove! that would make me incandescent too

I am so sorry you had such a horrible time. It sounds horrific.

they will argue that everything that was done was in your baby's best interests and yours too. it will be hard to show that CFM was agaisnt your best interests. esp. if there were signs of foetal distress.

i wish you the best of luck and hope that you get some closure on this

am sorry that your baby did not receive the best care and was unwell after birth and that you feel you are being brushd aside.

it makes thigns even more distressing

Thanks lu Hopefully hey (smile)

soz

i had a very bad time with birth trauma after i had my DS, and it was not even half as bad as what you experienced, you will get through it, and taking steps to address what happened is really important, well done ! x

I have already gone down these routes. The letter was the reult of the full investigation. This is what im saying. They just dont care...All they could say is that they found negligence on thier behalf on a numerous amount of occasions and said sorry. They did not say that anything would be done about it.

I mean take this for instance...I was on the ward when dd went down to NICU. I fell asleep for about half an hour to awaken to a midwife on the phone shouting at her superior to come and help her as she was the only one on the ward with over 14 women and
babies.

She was nearly in tears but so angry. I opened my curtain slighlty to reveal a lady (no baby) lying in the bed opposite me, hooked up to a drip and looked like she was on her death bed.
I overheard the midwife say on the phone 'come and help me Sue, I need your help up here im on my own and cant cope. (this midwife was my fave one) I cant be having a sick lady with suspected meningitis on my ward with all these women and babies. Shes not meant to be here shes meant to be in ICU (intensive care unit). You cant just plonk random people on wards where theres babies and ill women ( some were ill).We dont know whats shes got yet'

And when I asked the head midwife in my complaint letter to explain this situation she said 'I cant comment on the matter'

She could have has something really nasty and give it to a baby/babies or a mum.

I would really love to show u my Personal statement I have written and sent off today for uni. Im going to study to be a midwife as I believe there is sooo much room for improvement in the pre-natal care we receive... I feel so strongly about this. Pregnancy is the biggest emotional and physical change we as women go through and to feel like we have been ignored and mistreated is just plain wrong......
I want to make a difference. pre-natal care is just as important as the end result. Obviously you can see from my previous threads that I didnt have a great time while I was pregnant both times....

cazza share

Oh it takes a lot to knock me down!!!!! I'm gonna give it all that I have... One day i'll make a difference... Something has got to be done so that's why i'm here.
I'll post my statement on here... x

I am a hardworking empathetic person with lots of life experience. I guess my main reason for wanting to do this course stems from my complications during both of my pregnancies. During my first I developed Gall stones which contributed to my suffering with anxiety and Pre/Post Natal depression. Throughout my pregnancy I was anxious and didn?t have a lot of professional emotional help. I was in labour for around 24 hours and eventually had my son by emergency C-section. I firmly believe that because I was so anxious and scared during my pregnancy and labour it caused my son to go into distress, which in turn required me to have the emergency c-section. After the birth I was sent into a mother and baby unit for a few days to help me overcome the feelings of panic and anxiety that I was experiencing. I am still sure that with the right support and attention there would have been no need for me to go to a Mother and baby unit. At the time I was simply desperate to get home and begin our lives as a new family.

My second pregnancy was also fuelled with anxiety and I immediately thought the problems I had with my last pregnancy would affect me again. It turned out to be more of a nightmare than I could ever have imagined. At 20 weeks I was told that I had a low lying Placenta but not to be too alarmed as it can be a common problem in pregnancy and I was told that it should move away from the cervix.
This is where my fascination with pregnant women and the human body began!! I read and re-read everything I could find on this condition called Placenta Praevia. My appointment with my Obstetrician confirmed that I had Major Placenta Praevia and the chances of my placenta moving were slim and I was on complete rest at 22 weeks pregnant. At 29 weeks I began to bleed heavily and was rushed by ambulance to my local maternity ward. I was told after 3 days that I would not be allowed home as the bleeding could start again, heavier and more life-threatening for both me and my unborn son. I was faced with an eleven week stay in hospital.
Initially I felt sorry for myself and wallowed in self pity, but decided I could use the time I had to learn and help others. Two women on my ward had similar problems to me so naturally I befriended them and became a support for both of them. During my time in hospital I met and received 22 phone numbers from other pregnant women who were in labour or who had varying degrees of pregnancy complications. One woman in particular Kat, had pre-eclampsia and had been in hospital for 2 weeks and her health was deteriorating quickly. Kat asked me to come to her room where she opened up to me and told me that she wasn?t excited about having a baby after all and was terrified of becoming a mum for the first time. I understood this anxiety and explained that there are lots of women who experience these feelings. I explained that pregnancy is such a huge change, and is something we can never really prepare ourselves for and the impact a baby can have on our lives. I simply sat and listened to her, and just by doing this I had somehow managed to help her overcome her anxiety. This made me feel fantastic.
I decided to learn more from the midwives and care assistants about basic things like, how to make the beds and read ECG traces. My biggest accomplishment in hospital was the amount of thanks I got from various women thanking me and telling me they couldn?t have got through their birth experiences without my support. A few even joked saying I should become a midwife! It was an amazing feeling and as I watched all of these women come in have their babies and move on I started to realise that I finally had my calling in life.
One of the hardest things I have ever had to do in my life was to be in hospital away from my son who had just turned 2 years old. I will never be able to explain how those few months affected me or my son, the heartache of having to say goodbye every day. Lots of people told me it would get easier as the weeks went by but this was far from the truth. It hurt more and more everyday, watching him grow in those few months and not seeing him play or have a bath or even be able to change his nappies. I firmly believe that there is room for change in the midwifery profession and I want to be someone who makes a difference in women?s lives with both pre-natal and post-natal support. Women have babies every day but I know after spending 3 months in hospital I have a deeper understanding of the trauma that can accompany the joys of having babies. I still speak to ladies today who still do not know a lot about the complications that can arise during pregnancy and I believe that pre-natal care is of upmost importance. When women are in labour they need varying degrees of support. Women who have had inadequate pre-natal care need a lot more care physically and emotionally both during labour and after delivery. If I have learnt anything in the last few years it is that lots of pregnant women do not feel like they are heard or have much of an opinion with regards to their pregnancy and birth. I want to listen to what these women want and give sound advice as to what is best for them individually. I believe I can make a difference to these women and their partners. I have been through so much and feel that my birth experiences can assist and provide other people on my course with a real insight into personal experiences...

go for it. It may take a heck of a lot of doing be stay focused and strong willed. If you push ahrd enough, maybe you can make a difference for women like myself. Good Luck cazza

Hi all,

Just got to say Mollyfloss, I'm largely with you on this one. I don't think you sound at all like you're anti-homebirth, just pro women's choice in this context. I also totally agree with the statement:

"Saying women are more relaxed at home - well of course they are because they specifically choose the home birth presumably for that reason, but this would not be true of the general population."

I have become very well acquainted with the stats on homebirth but would never have one a) because I would still always 'feel' safer in hospital and therefore the advantages (physiologically and psychologically), would outweigh the disadvantages. Also, I would NEVER want to give birth without the possibility of pain relief, and not just gas and air.

One other thing I would say is that on the whole I think this debate has been relatively good-humoured .. for Mumsnet! But I can't help noticing that those who are the most pro-natural birthers/prolonged breastfeeders/whatever, always emphasise women's choice and how everyone should make their own decision, etc, but then quickly contradict themselves with the strong implication that nevertheless they are right about this and others are wrong. It does seem to me to be a case of everyone's right but some people are more right than others! I think it can appear a bit patronising - that women don't understand the stats/that they are unduly influenced by social conditioning. I wouldn't normally make a point of this, but I am quite intelligent and pretty well informed about childbirth. So I would reject the suggestion that because I don't want a home birth myself, for example, that I've misunderstood the stats or am behaving irrationally. Hope that makes sense!

Anecdotal I know, but I recently met two women from the Netherlands who have been through that system and had homebirths with no pain relief and subsequently been absolutely delighted and amazed and relieved to give birth in the UK, in the NHS, and WITH AN EPIDURAL! I know that doesn't necessarily count on its own as unnecessary intervention but seems relevant somehow.

Thanks Chellesgirl...