The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

"No doubt fear is a factor. I would have been a lot more scared at home I can tell you. But if someone is frightened, can you really reverse that through giving her the statistics? I don't think so."

No - I don't think the facts make people less frightened. I said that earlier on. People's feeling about birth are irrational.

I do think though that people's enthusiasm for hospital birth to a very large degree has its roots in a widespread ignorance about the normal hormonal physiology of labour and how this is affected by birth environment.

Yes but you needed it Starlight. There was a total reason for you getting a CS. Im just alking about the first time mums who dont wanna feel a big baby come out of thier vagina cause it will freak them out or because it 'hurts'. You are not one of those women.

why the pain? what caused it?

Oh. How can they not give you an answer as to why you had so much pain? Could it have been the fact you were scared or in hospital. No control? Or something else.

Is it too personal for me to ask if you have suffered birth trauma (like me)???

Did anyone know that having a anaesthetic injection for stitches can lead to PND or alike?

No MN is my councellor too!!!

At first I thought i had PND but never got it diagnosed as too scared to go docs etc.. so wroye a letter to DH. Didnt really do anything. then spoke to TinkerbelleandFiFismom and she said It sounds more like birth trauma. Visit thier website. Birth Trauma Association.
I was a textbook case too. And thats why its not PND. I need help! really tho i need to tell someone.

And the 2nd Birth? No c-sec, how did it go?

Well I have to say if it weren't for medical intervention I would now be dead and so would my lovely 2nd DS (who is very nearly a year old) Also my 1st DS (who is 3) would have died too...
I would like to have a very good chat with my first midwife who seemed to disagree with me when I told them I was suffering with PRE-natal depression... She didnt belive it even exsisted...
I am now training to be a midwife because I firmly believe there is room for a change in the treatment we recieve as pregnant women... I can honestly say though that the consultants I saw were amazing!!! They really truly listened to what I had to say. (i did spend 3 solid months in hospital).
Hope this was relevant to the topic?!?!?! xx

Oh and just thought i'd add...
The birth experience I had with my 1st baby (I was sooo anxious) I think made me panic too much and made my baby go into distress... I was then sectioned and put into a mother and baby unit...
I tried to tell the midwife I wasn't coping so well but Like I said she dismissed it like I was being stupid. I would rather trust a doctor than a midwife any day....

No not yet i havent. trying to sych myself up for what they might say. Still at that point of 'there gonna think im lying' and its been a year!

Im glad your second birth was part of the healing process. I always think having another baby would help now im more informed. but another baby right now.. aint got the money for him/her. Id love to though. But i think i need to focus on 'getting better'.

I sound awful!Like a mad woman.
I never thought in a million years id suffer so much depression. Ill give them a call as soon as I feel ready. dunno when that will be.

I think some of the healing process will also be slaping the consultant in the face,or strangling my midwife. dont think im gonna be able to do that lol.

Cazzabean...what were the life saving interventions you had?

Well with my first birth my son went into feotal distress. I had no idea what that meant at the time but when I asked for someone to go over my notes with me they explained that if I hadn't been on an ECG they would never have known. The midwife was arguing with my mum (with my husband present). The midwife was telling the consultant that my waters had broken and that if I calmed down then everything would be fine. My mum had gone through this 3 times and knew that something was wrong. My waters where then broken and my the consultant said that I needed to have an emergency c-section.
In my second pregnacy I had Major placenta praevia... I was in hospital for 3 months. If I hadn't had extra scans they would never have known what I had. (i had a scan that apparantly showed my placenta had moved up which wasn't the case). I could've died with this condition. I'm very lucky that my consultant was oin the ball both times!!

Cazzabean. In those situations I would expect these interventions to happen. It seems to me you didnt have a nice time in labour. Its nice to have an input from mums who have had life saving intervention, but we all think its necessary for this. What are your views about 'non necessary intervention'? Such as a midwife not listening to you, or being put on a monitor when you speciafically asked not to, being made to lie on your back, things that are not necessary to actually have a decent labour?
I know alot of us mums on this thread have had non necessary intervention becuase they were not able to speak up and say no, or becuase they wernt tolf the facts about these procedures.

We want healthy babies and we would do anything necessary to achieve this. But when a woman knows in her heart that she can birth naturally without intervention and with support, why should she not be allowed to? Why does anyone have a right to touch her/assess her without her consent just bcause of hospital procedures. No doubt made up by a bloke!

Chellesgirl, I suspect that many interventions could be avoided but become necessary eventually because of the events that have been set in motion by the 'care' process in hospital. Does that sound logical to you? So for example you may have more need of an epidural because you are being left on your own for significant periods of time during a long labour, or the midwife is too preoccupied with her other duties to provide you with emotional support. Once you have the epidural you need your labour augmented and you end up pushing for a long, long time. Your baby becomes distressed (understandibly) and you have to have ventouse/forceps to expedite the birth. Once the baby is in distress the instrumental birth is necessary: it is a 'necessary intervention'. But it's also an 'avoidable intervention' in the sense that had the mother had better and more focused care she wouldn't have needed the epidural in the first place......

I personally feel that what happens to women and babies in hospital makes high levels of intervention necessary. You can't reduce levels of intervention by any other means than by changing the way care is delivered and by providing midwives with better resources so they can look after women in the way they were trained to. Any attempts to reduce levels of intervention by rationing them, while keeping all other elements of the current system will be a disaster.

Standanddeliver: I understand your point, I do really

I do believe however that just a tiny bit of the responsibility comes from the Mum if she wants to help everything to go according to her wishes. A lot of Mum's apparently have had non necessary intervention 'because they weren't told all the facts about the procedures'. A good informative midwife/consultant is of course necessary but a woman who has chosen to have a child should in some ways prepare for labour. There are tons of books and courses available (and tons of info on MN). If they informed themselves in the first place then maybe some stuff wouldn't be such a shock and they could fight their corner a little bit better. Many women have told me they haven't done too much research on childbirth as they don't want to get uptight and scared. In fact they would be better off informing themselves about the eventual possibilities.

Problems such as being put on a monitor when you specifically asked not to or being made to lie on your back are a little bit difficult to understand at times because you absolutely have a choice when it comes to these matters. Mum's should know this in advance and yes they should be prepared by the midwife but they can also read up a little on childbirth and their rights themselves. The reality is that some mothers are not too keen on knowing too much in advance and regret it later. It is of course the medical profession's duty to prepare you as much as they can but to really explain the ins and outs of childbirth can take a long time so the Mum really should do some reseach herself before. Childbirth tends to go a lot more smoothly when you understand what's going on around you (the terms being used etc.) Some incidents in childbirth happen very quickly and you'd be better off having studied it a little bit before because a midwife or OB may just not have the time to explain it to you.

Regarding the Mum's who have had non necessary intervention becuase they were not able to speak up and say no, well, they just have to learn to speak up unfortunately. It is difficult for anyone in the medical profession to understand someone who doesn't communicate.

"In fact they would be better off informing themselves about the eventual possibilities.

Problems such as being put on a monitor when you specifically asked not to or being made to lie on your back are a little bit difficult to understand at times because you absolutely have a choice when it comes to these matters."

The problem with your stance on informed decision making in labour is that it takes no account of the normal psychology of childbirth, or the hormonal patterns of labour. Labouring women need to be able to put their entire trust in those who are caring for them. The hormones involved in birth - namely endorphins (which alter women's perception of pain) and oxytocin (which is the 'fuel' for labour - it triggers contractions) are highly vulnerable to social conditioning. Women who enter hospital in a highly alert state where they are required to plan, analyse and use the 'higher' parts of their brain are more likely to experience labours that become dysfunctional.They need to be able to let go completely and act instinctively. Labouring women often enter a sort of 'trance state' (if they are supported to achieve this by sensitive care) which necessitates a withdrawal from normal social interaction. How does this fit with making informed choices in labour and asserting your will against the mores of a large, busy and powerful institution?

Women also often become compliant in labour because they're fearful. It's incredibly hard to turn down treatment during if a health professional tells you that it's necessary for your baby's health.

It shouldn't be the case that mothers have to adjust their expectations and behaviours iin childbirth to suit the institutional working practices of hospitals - these should be built around the needs of mothers and babies. That's what 'woman centred care' means. It's not just a meaningless phrase.

Standanddeliver 'clap' 'clap' 'clap'

I applause you for your last comment. No one could have put it better.

And Molly wow. I mean how misunderstanding can you be. How offensive was your last comment. When your in labour and you 'let' your body do what its meant to do, like I did and then someone says 'Im going to give you this injection to make the babies lungs develop quicker'

And you say 'No' and they say ' well your not going to be transferred to the other hospital unless you have it, its hospital procedure and I have no choice but to give it you' and then you say 'No' Again. But this time another midwife comes in and you feel overpowered as no one esle is in the room.

Then you say 'Can it wait until my partner gets back' and they say 'no its got to be done now!' So there I am, forced to have a needle I hate and did not want. Overpowered by staff. Not being able to even have my partner by the side of me. And also this injection has to be done twice within 24 hrs for it to work effectively. I was already 3cm there was no way I was gonna take that long to deliver my baby - and she was born within 4 hrs of that injection. So there was no need for it in the first place.

The comment about women preparing for labour. Well I read and read and searched on net everyday. I read everything. I prepared myself for the birth of dd, and yet everything in my brth plan was not listened to. Nothing in my notes was read before dd was born. I didnt have any drugs/entenox during labour so my mind wasnt a haze as such. i wasnt drugged up. but when your in a hospital and you have doctors and midwives doing things without your consent, and not explaining what thier doing is very upsetting to a new mum.
I feel that you are one sided to this arguament and dont really have a 'womans' point of view. More of a obstetrician.

BTW. how was your birth mollyfloss. Dis t go okay?

Did it*