The general feeling here seems to be anti-invervention and medical help. Why, when it has saved so many lives?

[greenwithyellowspots]

I am really interested in this question. I think that Mumsnet is really geat, I love it, but one thing I've noticed particularly on the childbirth thread is that on the whole people are anti-intervention or even that doctors etc are the enemy! With induction for example, but also generally, the consensus seems to be about letting women get on with it because 'their bodies know best.'

But in the past, and still today in many countries, it seems clear that women's bodies DON'T always know best - mortality in childbirth used to be/still is horribly high! It often seems as though the medical profession can't win when it comes to childbirth - if they intervene they are accused of being over zealous, but if they get it wrong, they are also to blame.

I'm sitting here pondering the fact that I'm likely to be induced soon-ish and am reasonably willingly putting myself in the hands of the medical profession. Is there not a danger or harking back to a golden age of childbirth that didn't exist? I hope this isn't a really inappropriate question but I'm generally interested in what people have to say about this, as I kind of feel like I'm missing the point somewhere!

Standanddeliver: I am not going anything against what you have said there. It males sense o me. However, the point I am trying to make is that there are a lot of women who are not even a fraction as informed as you are. When a Doctor says for example, I think we need to use ventouse now, it might have been a good idea for women to know in advance what ventouse are because the Doctor is not going to have time to explain it to you. You would be amazed at how many women don't have a clue. Sometimes just knowing what is going on can help a lot. Another little thing is to prepare with your birth partner so he/she can communicate on your behalf if needs be. If a woman specifically does not want to be put on a monitor or lie on her back and knows this in advance, she could have at least discussed it with her birth partner who can speak on her behalf. Or if you have something very specific print it out in advance in bold and stick on the end of your bed if you feel that strongly about it. The most well meaning midwife in the world can't read minds.

Most of the women on MN are well informed and know a hell of a lot about childbirth but plenty of women barely read up on the basics. I'm just pointing that out, not making excuses for the health profession and the system.

Chellesgirl: I'm sorry if you thought I was being offensive. I'm in fact a little offended that you think I am trying to offend anyone here. It's actually not my aim. Once again, I only said that a TINY bit of responsibility belongs with women in that they can prepare themselves by getting to know a little about childbirth. You seem to know a lot about childbirth and you and your situation have nothing really to do with the women I'm talking about and please don't tell me all women take time to prepare themselves for childbirth. To many of them the terms you yurself have used would be double dutch. And by the way I'm not suggesting for second that being prepared is going to help you when you come up against the kind of midwives you came up against, it won't.

'Women centred care' is of course what the system should be aimed more towards, I'm not denying that for a second. But getting to know medical terms associated with childbirth etc. might make women just a little more comfortable with their surroundings and help them relax a little.

What you consider to be a womans point of view seems to be YOUR point of view. Mine is just ANOTHER point of view amd by the way I am a woman and not an obstetrician.

So what was your birth like then?

My birth went on forever it seemed, well not really the birth I suppose but the run up to it. I started having contractions (fairly painful on Saturday night), then VERY painful on Sunday but they were all over the place in terms of time and sometimes would stop completely for a couple of hours. I spoke to the hospital a couple of times but as I knew myself it wasn't time to go in (and didn't want to go in) so I tried to take my mind off things and even got out and about when the contractions stopped to keep myself busy. I was on MN a lot too. They got very fierce on Monday night again and finally on Tuesday night my waters broke. To be honest I would not have budged from home if they hadn't and looking back an unplanned homebirth (the irony) could have easily happened to me as my contractions never made any sense and I kept waiting for that. I was sort of out of it by the time my waters broke and so exhausted as I hadn't slept in days. I was in a trance but in a way almost used to the pain. I went into hospital and quickly got to 10cms, but then pushed for almost 2 hrs, but baby's heart started to slow all of a sudden and with the help of ventouse (which didn't bother me at all) she was born in three pushes, not breathing - oxygen etc. I retained placenta and had to be brought to the theatre as also lost a lot of blood. DH was the first really to bond with the baby. The full spinal block I had post birth for the placenta removal was the most unpleasant thing. I was treated very well and everyone was nice. I remember one midwife suggesting I lie down in fact and I said no way as I really wanted to stand but my legs could hardly hold me up I was so exhausted so I insisted I put an arm around each of their shoulders and stayed upright and paced like that for a while. It's just what I needed to do. In my primal or trance state I found I was very direct with everyone around me but that's sort of me anyway. My only one main desire prior to the birth was not to have a caesarean so I guess my expectations were not very high.

My cousin was around this evening. She's a qualified nurse, now training to be a midwife. I told her all about all of your suggestions and she took due note

'Problems such as being put on a monitor when you specifically asked not to or being made to lie on your back are a little bit difficult to understand at times because you absolutely have a choice when it comes to these matters.'

I had a choice, is this is what your saying? If you were me in that delivery suite begging to be able to just turn over or stand for 5 min, then you would understand. I had no choice, as they told me they couldnt hear baby's heartbeat if I moved. And I had prepared for this eventuality, and I had requested not to be put on the monitor, but hey. it doesnt matter, ill just read up on, 'how scared can you be if your midwife tells you she cant hear the babys heart beat if you move'.

This then lead to dd getting slightly distressed which resulted in her having to have oxygen later on. This could have been avoided if they had read my notes.

But then again, it wouldnt as its hospital procedure.

You seemed to have had a non textbook labor. Which indcates something had gone wrong. What was the reason for your baby to become distressed?

And Im glad your cousin is listening. It needs someone to.

sorry I meant textbook not non. durr!

But still did you find out the reason for yout babies distress?

Chellesgirl, I really do believe that in your case the staff were simply quite crap. All I'm saying is that it is a choice (and in your case it wasn't respected which is awful).

Many Mum's aren't even really aware that they may be put on a monitor or that they don't have to be if it is suggested. A lot of women ask questions after their birth as they don't really understand what went on and then think, actually I didn't really want that. In an ideal world a midwife would explain everything and present choices. That said a little bit of getting to know in advance the simple things like what the monitors do, thinking about possible positions worth trying etc could help a woman prepare a little (just a little really, childbirth is a shocker if you ask me). I only know that when ventouse was suggested to me I knew exactly what they were and what was happening. I wouldn't have been as comfortable had I not. Now, you would think most people know what ventouse are right? Well, when I told my birth story to many women (who've had babies not ventouse obviously) they asked me what ventouse are!

About the distress: I pushed for a long time and the baby really didn't advance down with all the pushing, and stayed fairly high (there's probably a medical term but I have no idea). I had presumed that that eventually caused the distress but maybe it didn't. In any case I don't feel it was caused by me feeling panicked or scared. My labour although long wasn't unusual in any way up to then and my pregnancy was textbook. I was exhausted and in a lot of pain (as women in labour usually are) but still focused on pushing as hard as I could and the people I had around me really encouraged me in the pushing and 2 hours was a long time to push.

www.nhs.uk/ServiceDirectories/Pages/MaternityDetails.aspx?id=MT1095&v=7

Please read if you like. (anyone)
It covers government guidelines for women during labor and what hospitals have to go by.

Oh how I ight just sue.

I'm going to read this but I'm just rethinking what you said about your midwives saying they couldn't hear the heartbeat if you moved. That is just dreadful. How on earth could they say that to a women in labour? Not to mention that it sounds like they didn't really know how to use the monitor. I thought you were supposed to be able to move around with a monitor on anyway...? I think that's when I would have started shouting at the top of my lungs - help there's some women in here pretending to be midwives!!! Bring me some real ones!

Starlight: I think I had heard that somewhere but I wasn't really aware or thinking of that at the time because I just really felt like pushing, it felt natural...

Ok ladies I have something for you. I pulled out the reply from the complaint letter just now as this prompted me to do something about what happened. Can I just share with you: And you can tell me what you think...

Go for it (although I have a feeling you don't really want to know what I think)

Snippets from the letter...

' When your baby was delivered she was taken straight to resuscitaire, which is a piece of equipment where the baby can be checked, warmed and given resusitation required immediatlely following birth. This would be normal procedure for premature deliveries'

'With regard to not having skin to skin contact, the midwife who made the recording on the computer system admits this was a mistake on her part and would like to offer her apologies for any distress caused'
'Another reason for taking the baby to the resusitaaire to be checked over was that the Cardiotocograph recording during the latter part of your labour the midwife had noted some decelerations of the heart beat. The midwife had asked the doctor to come into the room to review this CTG because decelerations may indicate the baby was distressed, but the doctor felt it safe to continue to a normal delivery'

'The peadiatrician examined your baby and made the decision that she was well enough to be cared for with you on the postnatal ward'

'You were asked if you wished to visit DD and feed her, unfortunately when you arrived on the Neonatal Unit you found DD receiving a bottle feed when you had planned to breastfeed. There appears to have been some communication breakdown between the midwifery staff and the Neonatal Unit, for this I aplologise.'

'In your letter you indicate that DD has a lactose intolerance and you feel that this was the reason for her being sick. It is not usual for babies to react to formula imediately'

'She bacame jaundice and initially you were told that if the Billirubin levels were below the line for treatment level then you could go home. You were at this point misinformed'

Id like to add to the top comment - she was left on the bed while they walked out of the room. only after 10 minutes was she put on the resus table and then had no oxygen/suction zilch.

Where do they get these midwifes who cant be arsed to talk to thier colleages? And the peads who give out wrong info? It baffles me as how they get the job in the first place.

There is much more but id be here all night.

The line of 'The pead then thoughtit was ok for dd to go to the ward with me' well that was when she turned blue a couple hours later and needed to be rushed to NICU.

Her judgement clearly was not good enough and nor was it when she stuck her bloody glove in Dd's mouth.

That really is truly awful. Midwives taking action without consulting you or anyone it seems - simply doing whatever they waned to. Unbelievable! and to give the baby a bottle when you wanted to breastfeed - that is just downright shocking.

Starlight: I was on the bed alright but in a sort of a semi sitting position propped up by tons of pillows, bum at the edge on the end. In an ideal world I would have been standing (that's the position I preferred most) but I really didn't have the energy as I hadn't slept in days. I think lack of energy was my main problem. I had been so fit through out my pregnancy but the four days of contractions left me thoroughly exhausted. I'd almost say that the exhaustion felt worse at times than the contractions.