Stop Accepting Fucking Maternity Ward Crumbs!

[AKookyGoldMaker]

Hello, fine people of Mumsnet...

I've read various threads on here with women feeling angry at how NCT fooled them with the myth of 'breathing their baby out', and how so many women are resigned to accepting that birth will always be shit.

Why do we need to accept that birth will be shit? Why are we hiding or whispering about the trauma or sharing secrets behind a Mumsnet avatar, in a privileged country in 2024 there's no support for the lack of care and trauma inflicted when we give birth in the only option available - NHS maternity systems.

It's only shit because we birth within a broken system and everyone's gaslit into thinking the midwives and obstetricians know what they're doing and that 'breathing' right in a clinical and unnatural labour ward can be effective.

Midwives and obstetricians work to the guidelines of defensive practice which involves heavy intervention, to avoid litigation. Do mothers even understand the reasoning or the implications of having an induction and the numerous interventions that follow?

Professionals don't listen to the mother, and even if they did, mothers don't understand their bodies and they have no confidence to defend their instincts because nobody educates us on this.

Who can honestly say they understood their body and how to follow their basic human instincts throughout pregnancy and birth? How many pregnant/birthing women have been ignored by medical professionals only to discover that their instinct was right all along?

Penny for your thoughts... :)

Based in Ireland so slightly different healthcare system - but same failings. Currently due to give birth in roughly 6 weeks and so disenchanted with the healthcare I've received that I am desperately trying to find an available licensed homebirth midwife last minute.

Baby is measuring big, and I've been fear mongered by every doctor I've met. Even though he's smaller than what his big brother measured at this stage, I've been told I'll need CTG & assistance because of the 'liability risks' and that I should think of a kiwi cup delivery as normal. 🥲 Left my last appointment on Friday in tears because the doctor refused to answer any questions yet and just kept stating her opinion as fact.

I like to read so during pregnancy I researched and read a few books on pregnancy and birth, during pregnancy I had some query over gestational diabetes despite all but one glucose reading being in range but still went on my records, and I was group b strep positive on a vaginal swab early on. So those put me as high risk and I had growth scans. I took these with a huge punch of salt knowing they could be inaccurate, but measurements were fine. I was however booked for an induction without any discussion at 40+2 as I'd be overdue. I said I wouldn't be attending but they still booked it. Turns out my waters broke before that but no contractions started, I was kept in hospital on iv antibiotics due to group b strep which I agreed with, I didn't agree and declined an immediate drip induction. I had to decline every time a midwife or consultant came in and they were really pushing it, but in my mind I have myself 24 hours and tried to relax, bounce, walk etc hoping contractors would start naturally so I could go onto the midwife led unit.
They didn't however so I stayed on labour ward and agreed after 12 hours as there was no sign of contractions, I tried to follow my hypnobirthing and birth plan and declined an epidural but in the end I was really struggling with the drip so accepted it over a c section. Reason for the c section being no progression but I knew that wasn't really true, I also felt when they said the mobile ctg monitors were broken was a bit of a cop out as I was struggling being really limited with movement.
Anyway I had the epidural and managed to sleep, woke after a couple of hours saying I could feel a huge pressure and wanted to turn onto all fours, but the midwife said no you are fully dilated but give baby another hour to move down, I'll be back then, and she left. I gave it 20 more minutes but found I was mooing away making this noise I couldn't control, and was pushing anyway my body was just doing it, so I woke my partner and he pressed the buzzer. Midwife came back in and panicked saying I can see babies head, oh I don't have anything ready! She pressed the buzzer for the second midwife, I didn't find her guidance then to be disruptive, she wasn't saying push or anything my body was just doing it. A few points she did say don't breathe the contraction away keep pushing, when I thought I was pushing far too hard I was sure I would tear and tried to calm it down by doing the down breathing and letting my body push. But all was good in the end as baby born after 20 mins pushing and only internal grazes
So I was happy overall

I had a good birth experience - was induced . Definitely was listened to - was given options .

i post this not because I am discounting anyone else’s experience however for someone going in to labour / pregnant may be a scary read if it is full of difficult labours

Yes actually although I had some issues I still say I had a very good first time birth and it was positive overall :)

I think there's an element of postcode lottery here. I have had four natural births. All extremely high risk. I always felt safe and listened too dispite almost dieing with my first. My hospital is very very good.

But I do realise the experience of being a ftm and then having your third of fourth I was more listened to and was absolutely able to insist that I had a epidural.

I agree with you to a point but I wonder if you could clarify your position etc? Are you against induction generally?

I agree with trusting instinct/ listening to women BUT I think free birth is dangerous (and indeed, home birth in SOME circumstances). I think the maternal mortality rate would be much higher if we just relied on instinct. I was induced, it wasn’t perfect but baby and I would’ve been in a much worse state if I hadn’t been.

You're right and wrong. Right in that maternity services for women are often abysmal, at a fundamental level, because the culture of midwifery and obstetrics is paternalistic and warped.
Wrong to be particularly against any type of birth. Induction is right for many women. It's wrong for many more who nevertheless feel pushed into it. The same is true of any type of birth. Women who want c-sections struggle to get them, often when they could be safely managed. Women who want vaginal births struggle to get them, often when they could be safely managed. It's not about the type of birth, it's about women not being listened to regardless of what they actually want.

This is such an interesting thread.

My reflection is that culture is such a fragile thing, and it only takes one or two members of staff to fundamentally change a birthing experience.

I had an anxious pregnancy and I was incredibly well looked after by 99.9% of medical staff. I was induced - my informed choice after much deliberation and weighing up of the risks etc. However, my waters broke spontaneously and the midwife on the induction ward just didn’t believe me that I was in advanced labour. No pain relief except paracetamol every four hours, and made to labour on a bay with only a curtain shielding me from others. It was one of the worst experiences I’ve ever had - undignified, terrifying and made me doubt my own body, stopping me from advocating for myself. When I was finally taken down to the delivery suite 14 hours later for the rest of the induction, I was 10cm dilated and ready to go, done only with paracetamol and eventually gas and air, when I made a fuss.

My experience up to that point was flawless, and it was flawless afterwards too. But all it took were a few people who didn’t believe me, and my birthing story changed considerably.

1st birth on a midwife led unit. Warned against it as "there's no doctor you know ". Went in after waters broke and was told I could go home or stay. I stayed and 4 hours later after a peaceful stint in pool with me bracing every so often against the pool, turned out I was fully dilated and popped DS out. Second DS had to be induced. Went into labour more or less immediately but was told " you're not in labour. You need another pessary". Then was rapidly in agony on the ward and was taken downstairs to labour ward in wheel chair , crying and wailing. It was too fast. DS was a bit grey on arrival after being rushed and I went into shock straight after. Night and day experience

Postnatal care is also abysmal. Lack of breastfeeding help too.
It all sucks and could be so much better.

Hmm. I think you're right that the NHS experience can be shit, because it's grossly underfunded and overstretched.

What I'm not so sure about is the implication that if we could only be better educated in the ways of birthing naturally, all would be well.

The fact is, giving birth is dangerous for humans. Nature only needs to ensure that enough babies and mothers survive the process to secure the next generation. Nature expects some not to survive and not to survive unscathed. Medical intervention is REALLY IMPORTANT to minimise death and maiming during childbirth. That's before you even take into account those women who actively choose a medicalised, closely monitored and/or surgical birth - it is absolutely their right to choose that.

So yeah, let's have loads more funding for maternity services and loads more respect for women to choose whatever support in pregnancy, labour and mode of birth that's right for them.

I was induced first time round because of excess fluid. I didn't understand the risk of going into spontaneous labour or the likelihood of needing an assisted birth due to the induction. I was told I should be induced and when and signed a form to say I agreed. I naively put my trust in the practitioners all the way through and had a horrible experience. I reacted quickly and powerfully to the pessary, I was in active labour, waters broken and resisting the urge to push because I was told over and over again that nothing was happening. I suffered for a few hours, confused, in agony, only offered paracetamol as pain relief, fobbed off by the midwives because the timings didn't fit their usual schedule. My baby was stuck in my birth canal because my body had resisted what felt natural, I put so much trust in these people that I ignored my own body. I asked to be examined and was refused, when they finally got me into a birthing suite some 12 hours later, I was 9cm, contractions had completely stopped and baby was in trouble and needed to come out. I had my second baby in the same hospital, induction was recommended because of fluid again but this time I explored my options and weighed up the pros and cons. The experience was amazing, I was better prepared but more importantly the mat department had had a vast improvement. I always had a niggling doubt that I wasn't right about the first birth, that it was normal, that I was treated correctly but the experience of the second confirmed the contrary and made me bitter that the staff that weekend took away my opportunity to have the birthing experience I deserved. My advice to expectant mothers now is always trust your body and make yourself heard, if something doesn't feel right, make them listen to you.

Birth is shit because we have big heads to hold our big brains, and small pelvises so we can walk upright. You're right that healthcare services (all of them, not just maternity care) should be better funded, but no level of funding will make birth easy or even safe for everyone.

There is a lot to be said for techniques like hypnobirthing when used alongside medical care, but at its more extreme end the natural birth movement reminds me of the anti-vaxx movement - a particular kind of privilege in the developed world where "natural" is prized above all else. People who have lost sight of the fact that nature frequently wants to kill us.

Signed, someone who did indeed grow a baby too big for her body - twice.

If I hadnt gone in for an induction at exactly 40 weeks (IVF baby and 40) then I'm not sure either of us would be here today. Developed sudden onset of upper gastric pain whilst waiting for induction (they hadn't even touched me at this point) BP went sky high, couldn't breathe, vomiting, pain worst imaginable. DD heart rate became pathogenic and she was whipped out as a cat 1 Emcs. All this happened v quickly.
I then was diagnosed with HELLP syndrome and needed a platelet transfusion, had severe bruising, extensive bleeding, suspected blood clots on lungs and low O2 stats.
I cannot fault the care I received.. The consultant had to make a call to deliver DD himself despite not knowing the outcome of my blood results had he waited we could both have been in intensive care or much worse.
We hear a lot of negative stories but there are also many many positive experiences..With thousands and thousands of women giving birth under the NHS every day there is bound to be a variety of experiences but at the end of the day the overwhelming majority end in a live mother and baby however that comes about.

I disagree

the nhs is dangerously underfunded and therefore obs units are in the main, terrible.

if anything goes wrong in the birth, trusts can be sued for millions especially if the baby suffers any unfortunate disability which requires lifelong care. in those cases compensations runs into tens of millions. the amount paid out by the nhs yearly in compensation is huge.
I'm not saying patients shouldn't get compensation. but this one of the reasons why doctors are more and more cautious and hospitals have policies to reduce risk as well as obviously wanting to avoid harm to patients.

birth is an inherently risky process. once the process starts, it's very challenging to manage and decisions are often made early on to avoid risk that may seem draconian. it also doesn't help that generally in healthcare female patients' concerns are taken less seriously

There's many ways in which doctors and midwives can make birth better or worse. But I truly don't think that instincts are all that. My first birth was terrible because I was so sick. Nothing would have fixed that. Now if the NHS had been properly funded then there would have been more staff, my pre-eclampsia would have been diagnosed more promptly, and there would have been more midwives on the ward so I wasn't neglected when I was ill. My elective repeat Caesareans were much much better because it was planned and calm and people listened to me. And that was true even with the one where I lost so much blood I needed a transfusion, because they noticed straight away and were paying attention the whole time.

Giving birth is so incredibly dangerous. It always has been. 100years ago 1/10 pregnancies resulted in the death of the mother and still births were also incredibly high. Modern interventions are why this number has drastically dropped. Yes there's something to be said for instincts but there's also knowledge/scans/tests that tell us when something is wrong and what we can do about it. I have 3 babies who are all alive and so am I. That's a win in my book. Because 100years ago I'm sure I would be dead.

I've had the same experience of them not believing I was in labour. Labouring on a communal ward and being told to quiet down in upsetting the other women. The after care was also shit. I think seeing a midwife when you are not in labour is very different to how they treat many women in labour. I've had 3 labours twice they didn't believe I was in labour and denied me pain relief, third they refused to listen when I said something wasn't right and now I have permanent damage to my bladder and will never toilet again properly. This would not have happened if they had listened to me instead I was left screaming in pain for hours before they did the emergency section

Are you for real?

What you need is professional education at postgrad level for midwives, properly trained obstetricians, and a system that isn't starved of funds.

You'll get this if more people sue for appalling "care" and disastrous outcomes.

All 3 of mine were completely different experiences

1st went into early labour and put on bed rest, had an ok vaginal birth (7hours) with episiotomy. Aftercare was ok, was left to it really.

2nd awful birth had to be induced (water popped already contracting) early due to reduced movements and ended up a general anaesthetic C-section due to cord prolapse. After care after this birth was awful. Severe tongue tie trying to breast feed. No information was given about complications that I can remember. I can remember being wheeled down to theatre on all fours with the midwife pushing baby back inside off the cord and being asked to sign a form for consent for operation.

3rd a very quick Vbac birth (2 hours), 3 pushes and baby was out. Severe tongue tie again but aftercare was much better.

I found the aftercare to be really good, agree probably a lot to do with postcode lottery
While I was still in the delivery room I didn't get any breastfeeding support, I had to ask I want to feed her please can I have some help, and I hadn't realised how much time since birth had passed it was only after I requested my notes it was almost 4 hours after birth that she was fed which I felt was quite long but in the time I didn't realise it
And that was the only time a midwife stayed to briefly watch and help me latch her, and I was there for 7 hours after birth and barely remember feeding her, baby was very sleepy

But once moved onto the post natal ward I got lots of help, some one came at least once every 4 hours to show me/watch as baby was super sleepy to feed. I was told I could be discharged the following day but when that time came and I asked when will I be going home they said I should stay for breastfeeding support, but I declined as I felt I needed more support at home, my partner couldn't visit that often as at the time we had a very elderly diabetic dog who couldn't be left home alone for long and during the night I didn't see anyone so was struggling having been awake holding the baby all night. Turns out she did actually feed better at home but in hindsight it's a bit worrying how little I fed her straight after birth and during the night when staff didn't check on us, but in the day the breastfeeding support was good

I want this to be a national campaign.

I have had a lot of hospital treatment sadly but hand on heart - the worst 'care' I ever received was during pregnancy and hospital afterwards.

Midwives have been given too much power and frankly a cohort of them are toxic ideologues. Women deserve proper care at this very vulnerable moment in their lives.

Our birthrate is crashing for many reasons but I know several women whose families were curtailed by trauma during birth and after. I'm one of them. I feel very strongly about this issue.

Hello @PatchworkElmer !

I’m not against induction if required. We’re lucky to have Intervention and obstetrics if nature isn’t going to plan. Also, I don’t think there’s such a thing as a superior birth - natural/balloons in your vag/c-section… if it’s an emergency or crucial to safety, then do what you need to do.

my issue is that intervention and induction is rarely due to safety, the majority of checks are tick box and having unnecessary intervention is dangerous. If midwives and doctors could understand symptoms outwith their tick box exercise then fine, but if it’s not going to their plan they induce rather than listen to the mother and her body, on the flip side, a mother can be wailing in pain but the ‘checks’ say she’s fine so she must be fine. That’s just not care. I don’t think it’s any way to treat a mother or how any baby should arrive into the world. I also appreciate midwives are stretched but both can be true.

induction leads to a cascade of further intervention. Sometimes your baby just needs more time to fully develop. Sometimes the baby will be too big and a c-section is the only way and often they’ll tell you the baby os too big and it’s comes out a normal size. Too much guessing.

my issue is with consent I suppose… if you’re not informed, you can’t consent. instead you’re forced to blindly put your trust in medical professionals who are overworked, have never met you, and know nothing specifically about you or your body which is odd because everyone is so different. I don’t think inductions and tick boxes are the way.

I think a home birth or hospital birth with a trained (not nhs trained) midwife can be successful as they know how to interpret stages of your birth and give you options. If they think you’re in danger they would get you to labor ward/hospital… because shit happens. Free birth sounds scary if you’re not a/don’t have a midwife or if you don’t know your body. I wouldn’t fancy it!

though I do believe that understanding your own birthing body is really important and I’m frustrated that no one (except if you pay which not everyone can do) tells you how to interpret it. There’s not enough information provided.

Mumsnet it’s quite good for venting. :)