Stop Accepting Fucking Maternity Ward Crumbs!

[AKookyGoldMaker]

Hello, fine people of Mumsnet...

I've read various threads on here with women feeling angry at how NCT fooled them with the myth of 'breathing their baby out', and how so many women are resigned to accepting that birth will always be shit.

Why do we need to accept that birth will be shit? Why are we hiding or whispering about the trauma or sharing secrets behind a Mumsnet avatar, in a privileged country in 2024 there's no support for the lack of care and trauma inflicted when we give birth in the only option available - NHS maternity systems.

It's only shit because we birth within a broken system and everyone's gaslit into thinking the midwives and obstetricians know what they're doing and that 'breathing' right in a clinical and unnatural labour ward can be effective.

Midwives and obstetricians work to the guidelines of defensive practice which involves heavy intervention, to avoid litigation. Do mothers even understand the reasoning or the implications of having an induction and the numerous interventions that follow?

Professionals don't listen to the mother, and even if they did, mothers don't understand their bodies and they have no confidence to defend their instincts because nobody educates us on this.

Who can honestly say they understood their body and how to follow their basic human instincts throughout pregnancy and birth? How many pregnant/birthing women have been ignored by medical professionals only to discover that their instinct was right all along?

Penny for your thoughts... :)

That’s awful! Do you feel your baby is ‘big’?

think of what you want - probably least damage to your body I’d imagine? - and then stick to it. If you go ahead with a ‘natural’ birth (take any drugs you need!) and your baby is too big, I imagine you’ll get a c-section?

this is your birth and your baby. You deserve to have an amazing birth and if anything goes a bit hairy, you’ll have the people there who can assist. But until you ask for assistance, or understand you’re in a dangerous position, this is your birth and it’s about you, your baby and your partner. No one else.

@mathanxiety odd question, but.. yes. For reals.

@AKookyGoldMaker

How do you 'interpret your own body'?!

What are the 'tick box' checks for, if not to check for signs of normal and conversely abnormal progression through labour and birth? How do your special 'listen to your body' checks differ?

I have a friend who was left to labour without intervention in a hospital. No 'pointless checks' or 'intrusive' examinations. No instructions to assume 'unnatural' positions. Her baby was dead before anyone noticed. The idea that a birthing mother just needs to tune in to her inner goddess and ignore the NHS trained midwives is batshit crazy.
Birth is dangerous. Taking away medical help and replacing it with 'education' about subjective feelings when you listen to your body is mental.

You do realise you're giving medical advice here? What are your qualifications to do that?

This sentence in particular:

If you go ahead with a ‘natural’ birth (take any drugs you need!) and your baby is too big, I imagine you’ll get a c-section?

I'd mind blowingly innocent and under informed.

Loved my induction with number 2, no cascade of intervention. Amazing birth with no stitches, only gas and air then 1 shot of pethidine for pain relief.
The hyperbole of posts like yours and vitriol against medical staff and scare stories are what led me to take castor oil with my first baby and have a really scary fast labour where he was nearly born en route to the hospital.
Yes there are failings in the NHS and bad medical staff etc etc BUT I felt fully supported with mine and just wished I'd waited then ended up with an induction for baby number 1 instead of being unduly influenced by scare stories like yours.

I was far more interested in the safe birth of my child than the “experience” which I think is a load of exaggerated bollocks.

I had an induction due to maternal age and GD, something I was happy with. It failed but I then had a spontaneous delivery with gas and air and 1 shot pethidine, fast so no time for an epidural (I wanted one). It fucking hurt (b
no tearing). But it wasn’t negative- just a bit scary as my contractions were continuous immediately- no breaks or time for candles.

I didn’t feel let down by NCT, they were very clear that births vary. They supported me to breastfeed for over 2 years.

I think shoving some insta experience of women that want it to be sunshine and rainbows is what’s wrong. Placing an expectation that it should be some spiritual experience and then they are all depressed afterwards and feel like failures. What a load of shite. It’s painful, messy and a bit scary as you don’t know what to expect. Focusing on how your baby got out and how you feel
about it is a load of tosh. If you are both alive and healthy we are all good and it’s best just to crack on with the important bit of actually raising them.

Exactly, how should we interpret our own body?

The tick box checks are all the invasive checks they perform whether a mother wants them or not which is awful considering there are other ways to ascertain the labour progress.
If you're in tune with your body, you understand the signals such as 'push' or can sometimes, not always, tell when something is wrong. The issue with women not having autonomy over their bodies is that they can say 'I feel 'x' is happening and I should 'x'' and then medical professionals can overrule them and as they don't understand the individual mother, they can only follow guidelines.

It's awful what happened to your friend. Why was no one supporting her?

birth can potentially be dangerous, I agree - especially for BAME women, black women in particular, their lack of care is awful. Intervention is also risky - litigation alone will show that.
Birth is also natural and the fear we have injected around birth and the fact we claim that intervention is the only option in what is essentially a natural process is thoroughly perplexing.

You're right in that there are a lot of issues with NHS birthing provision. But you can't blame it all on individuals, the system is over stretched and staff often have no alternative but to follow NICE guidance or their Trust's policy. And you lost me when you started giving medical advice to others on those post. That's incredibly irresponsible. Interventions are often pushed on women, but interventions we have now also mean that child birth is statistically much safer than it was in the past, and much safer than some other countries. I want medical advice. I've just your latest response, you're clearly very angry and very biased. i'm expecting my first and I feel very informed about the options, and their risks and benefits. you seem to think all women just blindly follow what they're told. and natural does not equal good or safe, pretty basic point.

OP, you seem to be using "natural" to mean "good" rather than any more neutral interpretation. Birth is natural, but that doesn't make it safe. Cancer is natural, as are heart disease and strokes.

Those tick boxes you mention have been based on data over huge numbers of women and are designed to risk assess. No one needs to have an examination if they don't want one.

I trained and worked as a midwife. I left as it's awful. I also had a traumatic birth.

It's not really medical advice though, is it? It's someone named AKookyGoldMaker on Mumsnet responding to a post with her, perfectly valid, perspective.

Thoroughly informed, but it's up to a mother to decide what is right for her. To do that she needs to know ALL options. The lady in the initial post is being shafted by her midwifery 'team' who are clearly en route to deliver her baby as THEY see fit, within their broken system, and there's no other alternative for that mother given what she shared. She deserves better care and to be fully informed.

You're a midwife and you think it's a simple case of being given a c section if the baby is "too big". At what stage do you think they'll decide the baby is too big?

If you are a trained midwife, then you should absolutely know better than to say 'if baby is too big, just have a c section' in regards to someone going into labour. At what point will they decide baby is too big? When she needs a forceps delivery, or a has shoulder dystocia? Not that I'm saying that will happen at all, but you can't say that she can just have a c section if baby isn't coming. There are far more eventualities and this is dangerous advice when you don't know the poster's individual circumstances.

FWIW I do agree that birth can and has become very medicalised but guidelines are put in place based on research, and it doesn't work in terms of litigation when a practitioner hasn't followed guidelines because the patient told them their 'body wasn't ready' as an example. Informed consent is the key here and is often lacking, but this is what needs to happen- not fear mongering and making out all medical professionals don't listen and want bad outcomes for patients.

She'd had her head filled with 'birth is a natural process', 'you don't need to be examined if you don't want to' 'hospitals are scary environments so that's why you feel in distress', 'let your body do what it was created to do' 'medical intervention creates a cascade of intervention (which should be avoided)' and all that bullshit.

It's this logic that I find interesting.

I'm not saying intervention is the cause of trauma, and I'm not saying intervention should be avoided at all costs, as with everything there is a time and a place. I know of mothers who have had a horrendous/traumatic birth with minimal intervention (or none!) and others who have had the whole shebang and have felt good after birth.

I agree, anyone looking for sunshine and rainbows will face a harsh reality - social media has plenty to answer for in that respect.

I don't think any woman is the same after having a baby - that transition should be acknowledged and respected. I think the feeling of failure also comes from not accepting that transition, and trying to be the person you were before.
It doesn't need to be a forced spiritual experience, though it should be acknowledged and accepted. But no one talks about that.

Birth is painful, messy and scary but you should know what to expect for natural, and then what your options are should something happen. If you have an operation, you are given a breakdown of what to expect before, during and post-op.

I'm trying to grasp your perspective, though I'm unable to see past the ignorance of your comment 'Focusing on how your baby got out and how you feel about it is a load of tosh.'
It's comments like this that allow a failed NHS to perpetuate. Women genuinely suffer physically and emotionally at the hands of the NHS maternity. Their experience is real and can affect everything; the bond with their child, their milk breastfeeding, relationships, and their career.

It's comments like yours that maintain the silence of birth trauma, and the fear of speaking out, fear of getting help because someone might take their baby from them.

Women deserve better. And no, it's 'not like it used to be' when you were in hospital for 10 days and midwives cared for you and your baby. Midwives are disgusted with the system the need to inflict. They can't do their job and are leaving!

It's great you haven't experienced birth trauma, but for the sake of those who have, please educate yourself. You sound like a bit of a dick.

It sounds like she was in the hospital with no one looking after her or asking questions and the worst happened.

You're not allowed to remain in the hospital for an extended period (if any) without intervention or some form of check so it sounds like she was neglected and failed by the NHS.

Please help me

I just had my consultants appointment this morning and was told I have to have planned c section at 39 weeks. Basically if I don't have it the chances of a rupture from the previous c section scar go up from 1/200 to "less, but I can't give you the exact numbers"

I do not want another c section. I do not want major surgery and recovery with a toddler, I don't want that stabbing pain when you walk even six months later. I do not want my child surgically removed.

I hate the idea that I have not been given a choice in this. That if I choose to let nature take its course I am being reckless and stupid.

The point is that scans aren't always accurate and claiming the baby is too big (very often inaccurate on a scan) is fear-mongering. If a woman is having a large baby, she should be given all options. If the baby isn't fully developed (labour hasn't started) women should have the option to decide for themselves. You could have an early induction, though sometimes if the lungs haven't fully developed (once your baby's lungs have fully developed the baby sends a signal to initiate labour) you're risking complications for them further down the line. No one has had this discussion with her. If you are delivering your baby and it's bigger than expected, you can still deliver, though you could tear or require episiotomy if the skin doesn't stretch enough. You should also be in the optimum position to deliver your baby which is sitting/standing/kneeling/squatting/hanging - not lying on your back with legs apart as this is difficult for even a small baby.

Another problem is that midwives rarely read the notes properly to understand the individual's circumstances. They don't have the time.

The guidelines are not based on research, they're based on defensive practice to avoid litigation. The guidelines are not created with the mother and baby as the main focus of the delivery. They want to keep mother and baby alive, yes, but the protocols in place are there to reduce litigation, hence the increase in intervention - defensive practice. I'm not ok with that.

I know many mums who have had a natural 2nd birth after having a c-section (VBAC). If your c-section is recent, it could be an issue, though at 18months/2 years you should have the option for a vaginal birth.

This is the insanity that I'm talking about. YOU should be able to decide if you want to try and give birth vaginally and you shouldn't be forced into having a c-section as your only option unless there's something specific they are concerned about. This is not valid consent, it's coercive manipulation.

I would suggest you contact another 10 midwives from all over the country and ask if VBAC is possible to ease your mind and explore your options.

OP you're just being dangerous now.

@concretevase 's medical team, who know more about her than you do, have advised a c section. You cannot advise her based on one post. VBACs happen all the time, there will be a reason she has been advised to have a c section.

Hi CelesteCunningham,

I posted an opinion to a post that sought advice. I also suggested they contact an additional 10 midwives to validate their options.

Do you know there's a reason she has been advised to have a c-section? Or is the midwife in question overstretched and out of resources trying to make her life easier?

Maybe you're dangerous, Celeste?

Midwifery is toxic and there's rarely an adequate HR system to report dangerous midwives.

I agree that following their trusts policy, especially as it can differ from trust to trust, feels illogical, unfortunately, they must follow the guidelines even against their greater judgment or face the consequences. Many can't be bothered fighting the case when they're exhausted, working unpaid overtime, and dehydrated because they're doing the job of 3 people in a life-and-death environment, a pee break seems too time-consuming.

You're missing the point that the lack of staff and increased intervention is dangerous for both mother and baby.

I'm not biased. I'm angry, yes. I'm angry at what women experience in maternity units throughout the UK. I'm confused that people are insensitive to the reasons trauma exists and prevent women who have had this awful experience from speaking up. We should want to understand and want to know. I guess I'm looking to understand WHY people don't want to question a broken system and instead mindlessly accept the crumbs they're given and follow the advice of people who are too exhausted to provide the care they need and deserve.

Of course, many births are positive - this is great. But we need more of them.

I'm being told I'm dangerous which is bizarre considering the conversation. :)

I'm not against intervention WHEN REQUIRED.
I don't believe vaginal birth is superior
I don't believe no pain meds are superior
I want women to understand their options and what birth is and what could happen.
I want women who have experienced a negative birth to be able to share it and for others to understand or be able to offer compassion rather than have these women stay silent or feel ashamed because they were failed.

Lots of exercising the fingers today.

No, I don't think I'm dangerous to suggest that you shouldn't be giving advice about cases you know nothing about online. I also don't think it's dangerous to suggest that if a woman's medical team have suggested she needs a c section then there will be a reason for that, and that a former midwife with no knowledge of the case isn't qualified or safe to advise otherwise.

@AKookyGoldMaker I think you raise some important points and I am not sure why you are being shot down. Some people seem to think birth should be completely medicalised. The evidence shows that induction does lead to a cascade of interventions. That is not to say it isn't necessary in some situations.

I was put on the artificial hormone drip with my first baby and it was utterly horrendous and I really attribute it to the the way I felt immediately after birth (Awful). It interferes with the with the natural process that normally takes place when you give birth.
I was pressured to have it again with my second but I resisted and when they took my into the labour ward I bypassed the bed and squatted down and had my baby. I remember it vividly and it was amazing! I was absolutely buzzing and felt on top of the world (Please no one criticise me for sharing my birth story, it's personal to me and has absolutely no bearing on how anyone else gave birth)

I had natural births, all was absolutely fine. Follow up care was great with my first too, didn't need anything second time

but the protocols in place are there to reduce litigation

Reduce litigation you say? And why would there be litigation do you think? What would the hospital be being sued for?
Would it perhaps be due to causing life long damage and/or death to a baby and/or their mother? You cannot sue for nothing (in fact medical negligence is an extremely high bar to prove due to the Bolam principle).

So what exactly is being reduced by these protocols? (clue: you need to look past the litigation to the SUBJECT of the litigation....)