free birthing (please don't post if you don't like the idea)

[workstostaysane]

anyone done it, interested in it, read the books?
i'm only just pregnant for the 2nd time - had a totally drug free wonderful home birth first time around and now keep thinking i'd love to do it without a midwife this time. just interested to know if there is anyone else really.

It doesn't matter how much you plan and study and "think yourself into" the birth you want, it just might not turn out how you expect.

Second labours are different from first ones (well all labours are different aren't they). My second labour was much quicker and I felt a lot more out of control. The midwife helped me not to panic (all she did was make eye contact and tell me to stay with her - that was all it took). My first labour was slower (12hrs) but I tore terribly and needed a spinal for repair work, having given birth with only G&A. Both times I needed some help.

If your DH is a lawyer then get him to speak to someone who deals with Clin neg, then decide whether HE is happy to have HIS child born without assistance, right in front of his eyes. It is not just your decision.

WTSS--I think you have a long time to decide this (although it seems as if your mind is made up).

I think you need to side with your dh on this. You are putting him in a terrible situation. If your free-birth goes well than that would be wonderful. But if there were to be problems with you or the baby, you are putting all the pressure on him (which if I were him I wouldn't want). Do you think he wants the responsibility of saving his wife and his baby should something go wrong?

You need to plan for the worst and expect the best, but your posts about not wanting a midwife nearby shows that you aren't. You are planning for the best and expecting the best.
Also think about how you are going to spend this pregnancy do you want your last few weeks to be spent focusing on emergency situations(which I know don't seem real now) or fighting with your dh about this choice , or do you want to focus on the beautiful birth that you want.

I think Lulumama made some excellent points here especially re the input of your DH and the fact that "women do not tend to birth alone as a rule".
This is from "The Naked Ape", Desmond Morris's classic anthropological book;
"It is a universal practice today for the female to be accompanied and aided by other adults while she is giving birth. This is probably an extremely ancient procedure. The demands of vertical locomotion have not been kind to the female of our species; the penalty for this progressive step is a sentence of several hours' hard labour. It seems likely that co-operation from other individuals was needed right back at the stages while the hunting ape was evolving from its forest dwelling ancestors. Luckily the co-operative nature of the species was growing alongside his hunting development".

i did post earlier that i would not do this unless dh was in agreement.

and lulumama sorry you read the responses rather than my post but i did not say that everyone gets the birth they deserve, but that my mates gave birth in a way one could have predicted. you havent; come across as hectoring at all.

i don't think of unassisted childbirth as an 'ideal'. many people presumably want to be in hospitals like in sweden where there is every machine available should they be needed and that is their 'ideal'.
i like the idea of giving birth without anyone i don't know well present. i like the idea of doing it on my own with my child. thats why i am asking what the practicalities are rather than what anyone thinks of my feelings on the matter.

rebelmum, thats really interesting about the midwife who was not there as a midwife. i can see how that would be a good combination of person to have with you.
where did you find him?

WTSS-I'm a little jealous of your bravery.

thats a kind thing to say mom2latinoboys
although with reports on out today surely the brave thing is to set foot in a hospital in SE London (which is where i am)!

reports on midwifery out today...

thanks for the clarification re your DH

i honestly do hope that whatever you decide, you have a happy and empowering experience and all is well for you and your baby

Dr Sarah Buckley. I have her book and love it! Her last birth was unassisted. Read her articles, they are in her book so you can get a flavour before you buy, so to speak.

I have just spend far too long going through this thread!

In theory, I would love a freebirth and allow the placenta to separate naturally...

BUT

having had an emCS, then a VBAC with forceps I don't know if I have the courage and conviction to do so.

I would plan to stay at home with a Doula and ask mw to keep the G&A in their car and to be as hands off as possible. I do NOT want the HCPs to cut me again! (unless in dire necessity)

As a doula I would not be supported by my fellow doulas if I knowingly supported a planned unassisted birth.

Will be following your story, stay strong

thanks lulumama, i appreciate that. and your other posts as well

heyklaw. i bought 'unassisted childbirth' by laura shanley which was a bit of a rant and mainly focused on how if you think it will be good it will be. she didn't really give any other reasons for choosing UC. is sarahj any different or pretty much the same kind of thing? not that i don't agree, but have already read a lot of that kind of stuff.

Re: desmond morris - I've remembered someone telling me that female apes birth their babies facing forwards - ours (usually) come out facing backwards. That's why it's easier for apes to reach down and help birth their own infants, where as humans often benefit from help from someone else in the last stages of labour.

Personally I think that the fact that historically mothers have traditionally not birthed alone in any culture (with a very tiny number of exceptions) suggests to me that having support and help during childbirth is a good idea......

I DO understand the logic of freebirthing, I really do. I wouldn't be surprised if birthing completely alone in a safe environment with no interference reduced a woman's chance of problems during childbirth. BUT, I wouldn't do it myself - I think weighing it all up it's more compassionate to the baby to have unobstrusive medical help at hand, in the rare event that it might be needed.

Ah, now I recall! Not only was it unassisted but it was breech Maia's birth

Read Sarah's articles, I found her very easy to read and considering that she is a GP, I'm sure you won't find her quite so militant as Laura Shanley (I've read LS online but not her books)

There is a great mag out there that is full of positive stories including many 'free births' called 'The Mother'. It's positive views have helped me to have 3 completely drug/intervention free births, and i too would consider a free birth should i happen to have a fourth. My last was a home birth, where i had to ask the midwife to stop talking to my partner, i had to have internal exams and be moved to the sofa, all of which seem trivial to an onlooker, but when you are in the full throes of birthing all of them were very disturbing to my experience. Go with your instincts, and try the mag - it's great!

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"Actually Odent's first book (Birth Reborn) is really inspiring, if you are looking for a read"

But for the full effect you have to read the best bits out in a French accent......!

Gawd - I lurve that man.

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Freebirthing? (shock)I can think of some sad stories that could of been avoided, thank god they're rare in the UK. Sorry to sound negative but what are you thinking?? I feel sad that things were so bad for you that you feel the need to go it alone. Yes, there are women doing just that all around the world - usually because they are poor, but some of those women suffer awful consequences because there was no help on hand when they needed it.What a shame and so sad.Have you thought fully about the consequences if things don't go ok? Please think about how important this little person is.And you.Something minor and easily sorted by a midwife can turn serious without professional knowledge on hand to recognise when things are deviating from the norm. We can sit in another room if you want! I would hope you had a better relationship with your midwife but recognise that it is harder and a harder due to short staffing and limited budgets that we are able to give continuity of care with the same midwife.(sad)

9 times out of 10 things are great and I am all for taking the fear out of childbirth but you have to think of safety too for both you and baby. Instead of going it alone why not exercise your rights?? No-one can do anything you are not happy with. You have choices, why not use them? Lobby the government for more midwives so we're not rushed,stressed and too few to attend your home birth! We do try our best but are not superhuman either.(wink)Lots of us leave the profession in the first 2 years of qualifying. We need to work together to get women what they need.

I am a mum of 3 children who didn't have a particularly good experience in local consultant unit before I became a midwife.I birthed naturally, I used gas and air, pushed when I wanted etc but unfortunately was on my back on the bed (really hurt my back) and had a room full of unwanted people. I certainly wasn't well informed. I do understand and empaphise with women who have had a bad experience or felt they were not supported but please don't feel the only alternative is to go it alone.

I am now a qualified midwife and reflexologist in a birth centre who regularly facilitates and empowers women during their labour and birth - in and out of water. At home or in the birth centre. Most of us midwives want to give women what they want.I have facilitated home births, hospital births,hypnobirths,waterbirths etc and so have many of my colleagues at the birth centre.

It frustrates me that women are choosing to birth at a local cons unit 'just in case' rather than use the fantastic facilities we have at the birth centre/have a home birth. Then we end up constantly fighting to keep our birth centre open. Why? and then the other extreme of freebirthing. A midwife is meant to be 'with woman' and supportive. A doula's role is to support the woman but not replace a midwife.I think it's unfair to put a doula in that position.

Please think of your choices and look on the internet for support groups.Midwives online,Association of Radical Midwives,NCT, Maternity Alliance Group etc who have local groups and forums.

Rather than go it alone you can:
1.Request a home birth - one midwife will be with you in labour and another will arrive shortly before the baby is born to be on hand to sort out any problems/resusitation/get help if needed.

1. You can request that the midwife is not in the room with you. 3.It is your responsibility to understand and accept any consequences in your decisions and as long as this is documented then you can exercise this right. 4.You can write a birth plan and put all your choices down. I don't know many midwives worth their salt who wouldn't accomodate your choices. It is your right. 5.If you don't feel happy with a certain midwife you can ask for another midwife (this would be subject to staffing though). 6.You can lift your baby onto your chest after your baby's born if you want to. 7.You or your partner can cut the cord. We respect your wishes. The only time we may need to cut the cord quickly is if the baby needs help/resusitating. 8.You can request that your midwife is 'hands off', 9.you can refuse to have vaginal examinations if you don't want them - it's your body and we need your consent. If a midwife asks to assess you by vaginal examination,you should get an explanantion of why the midwife may want to examine you ie is he/she concerned or unsure about the position of the baby. Is labour progressing normally or has it been long and slow or contractions coming to a stop. We should be the guardians of normal birth and there is usually a reason (we usually find out after!!) why labour is not progressing as well as it should.

10.You can have an independent midwife who will fully discuss your wishes. 11.If your wishes are outside of the usual Trust policies and/or you or your baby have additional medical needs, your midwife can discuss them with a Supervisor of Midwives to try and facilitate what you want.

Sorry to rant on but I am realistic and as a mum I know there are places up and down the country where women may not be getting the support/experience they need/want. Please use your birth centres, lobby government and make your voices heard as it's the only way women will get what they need in the future.(smile)

This is my personal opinion and I am not representing other Midwives or Hospital Trusts, just speaking from the heart!Sorry if i upset anyone, it's not intended to but I want you all to be safe and have a lovely birth.
Love and best wishes to you all and Good Luck, Karen x

You didn't give the impression that he is really in agreement though, just that you will be able to get him to go along with you. Which isn't the same thing at all.

35 hours for a placenta Mine came out naturally after 9 minutes! I'm surprised she didn't get some kind of rip roaring infection.

who knows Maxbear - you can type what the hell you like on the internet - there is absolutely no way of varifying Eugenie's story of Tygo's birth. I am very sceptical that there were no problems after a birth like that. I wonder what state her pelvic floor is in for example, after five hours of pushing?

What she did is nothing exceptional, unfortunately thousands if not millions of women go through births like that (and worse) in many parts of the world, and suffer huge phyiscal and emotional problems because of it. What they would give for some decent medical care!

hi professorGrammaticus

no dh is certainly not in agreement at the moment and if he remained that way then i'd have to rethink.
but he is listening to my reasons and having a think about it which i trust him to do. if after lots of thought and conversations about it, i still want to go ahead and he doesn't then there's no way i could do it.

and in fact, his attitude has softened already from his finding the book on the bed! especially after the poor reports of london maternity services.

and karewins, thanks for your comprehensive post. i have thought through those options and i know they are there. i am still attracted to UC though. and you are right about lobbying, but i don't think i feel strongly enough about it to wage war on behalf of labouring mothers as a whole.
breast feeding is another matter - i'm trying to get a cafe set up where i live, which involves training peer supporters and much aggro which i am happy to do, but childbirth does not move me on behalf of others so much. i just feel strongly moved to do it the way i feel comfortable with

Hi worktostaysane, glad you've thought through all your options. I met Ina May whilst I was a student midwife, she was inspiring. I'm hands off unless (rarely) I need to be more hands on because there's a problem but I know some midwives are hands on because that's how they were trained and some feel you tear less if they slow down delivery of the head but i've found the opposite and most of the women I've helped rarely have more than labial grazes/skin only tears that don't need suturing. Thats a whole other midwife argument!!!! Ina Mays book called Spiritual Midwifery tells a lot of birth stories.

Sorry to whinge on about lobbying but I wish more women would as the powers that be just don't see childbirth and mums as important as other NHS services and yet our kids are the future :-) However, as a busy mum myself I never seem to get round to all the things I want to do so I understand that you aren't interested in waging war!!

Good luck with setting up a cafe for breastfeeding (another thing I feel strongly about ;-) We have set up one in the local Childrens centre. I wanted to help run it but the 'service' couldn't afford a midwife to go too often so a great Maternity Care Assistant goes who is really supportive on breastfeeding. The mums run it too and there is a peer support network, and now mums training to be breastfeeding support workers so hope you can do the same. Good luck in whatever you decide and have a lovely birth. Karen