free birthing (please don't post if you don't like the idea)

[workstostaysane]

anyone done it, interested in it, read the books?
i'm only just pregnant for the 2nd time - had a totally drug free wonderful home birth first time around and now keep thinking i'd love to do it without a midwife this time. just interested to know if there is anyone else really.

[belgo]

yes, tmmj, child birth can in fact be the most dangerous thing a women and the baby will ever go through. When nature gets it right it works wonderfully .....unfortunately when nature gets it wrong, and it does get it wrong in a significant number of cases...there can be disastrous results.

good luck whatever you decide worktostaysane.

[maxbear]

themildmanneredjanitor, when I was comparing it to smoking and bottle feeding what I meant was that the risk to the baby is probably similar in these circumstances, I am just not always very good at expressing myself. I too have had very little intervention at my births but would not want to free birth. sorry to confuse, hope I haven't offended anyone

[Slubberdegullion]

I have a question for any mws/doulas here. How little intervention can you get away with when you attend a birth that could not be viewed as negligence (if something went wrong)?

If a woman has stated in her birth plan that she wants to be left alone (no internals, no checking of foetal heart rate etc etc) are you allowed to do just that? Are you allowed just to be 'on stand by' in another room? Where does duty of care come in?

[Slubberdegullion]

(additional question)

Is your duty of care to the laboring mother? Or to the unborn child, or the newly born child? Presumably to all three, but in equal measure?

[Mercy]

Worktostaysane, are you planning to have no medically qualified people before, during or after the birth?

(am not expecting an acknowlegment btw)

[marjean]

I've just had my second child at home. Both experiences were fantastic in their own way and resulted in happy, healthy mother and child. However, the second experience was completely different from the first. Whilst my first labour was long and slowly built up, my second escalated dramatically in the latter stages. I couldn't communicate how far along I thought I was and began to panick - it had seemed so 'natural' first time round but I began to doubt my instincts and felt completely out of control. It was only when the mw turned up (who was fantastic and incredibly respectful) that I felt secure enough to actively push and my baby was born a few minutes later.

Another thing to consider is the third stage - I think I can tell a healthy baby, but a healthy and intact placenta?

So, freebirthing - great in principle but I'd be cautious about 'planning' anything based on your previous experience and seriously consider all aspects of the birth process. Good luck with whatever you decide and be sure to post your experience on mn - it'd be really interesting to hear!

[workstostaysane]

i don't see why you wouldn't have antenatal care as thats where much of the danger lies; the reason for much of the higher infant mortality rates of the past. but during and after not. my mws last time kept forgetting to come and see me, which frightened me at the time, but now i suspect i would just get on with it and take her for her 6 week check up at my GP's.

i live in london and i don't think the midwives here have the time or energy to really give much of a stuff about anyone in particular. they just seem to need to get through the day

i guess the backup plan is to dial 999 and haul ass to the hospital fast.

[workstostaysane]

thanks marjean,
i have ordered books on how to do this. you'd need to know stuff like that obviously - whats right, whats not, signs that things are going wrong. but you have reminded me that there is a LOT to learn

[maxbear]

As a midwife if I did something to a woman without her consent then it is assault. This means that if a woman requested my presence but did not allow me to do anything I would have to document it in the notes, contact a supervisor of midwives to inform them of the situation and just watch and wait (or listen and wait if not in the room!). If I were in her home I would be where ever she wanted me to be. My duty of care is to all three as you rightly suggested Slubberdegullion, although the fetus has no legal rights until it becomes a newborn. It would be a difficult situation for any midwife to be in, but I personally would respect the womans wishes and just be glad that she had called me.

[LittleBottle]

From what I have read on various websites, the women who choose freebirthing are well aware of the risks etc, and do a huge amount of research and preparation before making such a decision. It's really not something anyone who had any degree of 'higher risk' to their pregnancy would choose.

worktostaysane, have you tried posting on the HomebirthUK Yahoo group? I know there was at least one woman on there who had a freebirth in the last few months - you should be able to search/contact her there.

I would not choose freebirthing myself, but as others have said, I believe it's a woman's choice to make.

[camillathechicken]

women can refuse care for themselves antenatally, and intrapartum and postnatal care.

any women can make an informed choice to do so.

more women are more interested in hands off birth..... midwife there to catch the baby, rather than deliver... women do refuse things like VEs and SRM, i suppose freebirth is the ultimate isn't it?

[Lulumama]

[3andnomore]

Works, I will see if I still have her contact details and will let you know...

[workstostaysane]

thanks littlebottle and 3nomore

i haven't posted on homebirth uk but will do so.

[3andnomore]

works...I haven't got her E-mail anymore...and haven't had any contact with her in a fair few years...
she might still be on Babycentre UK, so, might be worth asking there if anyone has any experience of free birth...she probably would come forward...
probably most likely to be found on Homebirth Board or Attachement Parenting Board...

[Mintpurple]

Slubberdegullion - I dont think its ever been put to the test in a case like this (duty of care), but m/w are struck off or severely critisized at these tribunerals for fairly minor infringements, probably less than I have read on mn from some of the experiences that women here have had with their midwives.

I would imagine that the tribuneral would throw the book at any m/w who was sitting in the next room, after having been paid to care for the woman, as she bled to death, or the baby died due to undiagnosed fetal distress, or failed to act in case of shoulder dystocia. I really dont think that it would cut it, that the mother had asked the m/w to stay next door. Also by the time the shit hit the fan and the m/w was called away from her newspaper, she will be trying to retrieve a bad situation, rather than circumventing the potential problems, which is always much worse.

The duty of care would always be to save the mother first, but obviously, a single m/w is going to be really stretched if 2 things happen at once, eg flat baby and PPH. Thats why there are usually 2 m/ws at a hb.

I dont condemn or condone what she is trying to do, and I can understand why she wants this. As a m/w I always try to facilitate the requests of my patients, and as long as they are able to make an informed decision about their care, and I have documented this to cover myself, I am happy to go along with almost anything, as we are dealing with grown women who are empowered to make their own decisions. As a m/w, however, I would not be comfortable sitting in the next room, as I think it would expose me to an unacceptable risk of allegations of neglect. I would be happy sitting in the corner of the room, pretending to read the paper if you like, as even without looking at a woman, you can tell how they are doing just by the non verbal noises and the body language cues much of the time.

The worry I would have with no m/w present and the back up plan of 999, is that with all the books in the world, and all the knowledge, wtss will still probably not recognise a problem coming. By the time her dp calls an ambulance and it gets there, the problem will probably be resolved, one way or another.

Slubberdegullion, I hope this explains my opinion, sorry if its a bit long winded.

[Pruners]

Message withdrawn

[mom2latinoboys]

The idea sounds good to me, and although I think it would be a wonderful experience, I don't think I could do it.
But after seeing "this [http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/articles/pregnancy/unassistedbirth/index.php] page" I think I would want to.

[Slubberdegullion]

Mintpurple and maxbear thank you for your posts. Interesting reading. I suppose the ideal (well in my eyes) is to have a good relationship with your (antenatal) midwife, one where you can explain (and have it acknowledged) that you want as little intervention as possible during your labour, and then for that midwife to attend your birth (in hosp or at home).

But this of course is dreamy dream land.

I nearly got this experience with my home birth, had dd2 arrived one day earlier or later my community midwife would have delivered her. There was some feeble excuse about being off duty ....sheesh I tell you...these NHS workers just have no dedication to the job these days

[booge]

Why is no one as gob-smacked as me at the utter foolishness of this. I'm not pro-intervention and had a homebirth myself but this is a crazy and selfish plan. While the mother has choices the baby does not.

[belgo]

I'm sure there are a few of us who are gobsmacked booge, and who will agree with you.

[duchesse]

Actually, many many more women in childbirth related complications due to the after effects of malnutrition, exhaustion, and infection caused by interventions with unsterilised equipment.

I can't find the reference, and haven't time at the moment to track it down, but I once read that the more affluent classes in the 19th c were statistically far more likely to cark it in/ due to childbirth both in and out of maternity homes. Largely because of the above interventions.

Poorer women more likely to die during their 11th labour at 45 from sheer exhaustion and malnutrition.

The dangers of childbirth in a well-nourished, well, ideal weight woman who has already proved that her birth canal works by having one successful labour are minimal as per the Dutch system.

As for the dangers to the baby, well of course it is the most dangerous thing it will ideally ever do in its little life. All its systems are untested, and some babies' hearts will give out under the strain of all that adrenalin and stress whether you're in hospital or at home. This is assuming no undetected abnormalities.

Modern day 3rd world stats often include women or very underage GIRLS with teh problems of malnutrition and illness cited above. Furthermore, there are many birthing practices that may expose women and babies to infection (from a book I have whose name I can't remember but will track down later by a midwife who travelled all over the world taking notes) Comparing these women with 1st world healthy women is not a level comparison.

[Lulumama]

I suppose i would be more shocked if this was the first time i had heard of it... the thing i keep coming back to is the what if scenario.....which is why freebirthing is not something i could personally contemplate

nor could i or would i attend one in my role as a doula as i would leave myself open to prosecution.

one of the major factors in this for me is that throughout the ages , women have tended to have someone support them in birth...a midwife, an elder of the community, someone experienced in birth. it dates back to biblical times..

so, for me, if women have historically had birth companions who are experienced, there is a good reason why that has survived the test of time

i am all for hands off midwifery, and letting labour flow without intervention, but for me personally, it is a step to far

[duchesse]

Slubber- don't want to thumb my nose at you but both my daughters were delivered at home by the same community midwife, both times on her day off. The first time she'd just finished a shift at the hospital when I went into labour, but luckily was able to go home and get some sleep before the actual birth the following birth. She said that homebirthing was what midwifery was all about, and the home births that she attended made all the crap she endured in hospital worth staying. Even the midwives don't enjoy the hospital environment.

[belgo]

duchesse - my midwife says the same things. She works in a hospital even though she doesn't really enjoy it, but she says she does get to see some very interesting things there. But she loves doing home births - that's where her heart lies.

My two midwives during my home birth had 40 years of experience between them - one had worked in Africa in a third world environment, and the other had a lot of hospital experience. I felt so reassured by their presence, and am very glad they were there, as the birth was not straightforward (despite having had a straightforward first birth,, my second birth was more complicated).