Why is everyone so anti elective c-section?

[Gangle]

I'm only 7 weeks pregnant but am sure I want an elective c-section. I've read extensively around the subject and think I'm well informed on the pros and cons of elective c-section v VBAC but it seems there is so much stigma attached to elective c-sections and that people will do/say anything to attempt to dissuade you from having one. Just wondering why there isn't more respect for your wishes about how you want to give birth.

I think that part of the problems that we have discussing this is comparing relative levels of pain and discomfort. This is always a tough thing to do at the best of time. Let alone over something as emotionally charged as child birth.

And there is the factor that all births differ, as do all women in the amount of pain produced and crucially percieved.

My best mate had her first birth with no pain relief at all, not because she is a fan of pain, but she never felt overwhelmed by the pain; she was always in control. She was also fortumate enough to have an utterly straightforward delivery, of a good sized baby with a good presentation. She was home withing 12 hours and her next birth was at home

Another mate had a horrific deliverly, masses of pain, felt out of control, had a high forceps delivery at the end, after many attempts at ventouse. Her comment when I asked her how many stitches she had was 'The conly centrefold I'd make nowerdays would be Crossstitch Monthly' . She was in considerable pain after the birth for quite some time.

I had a section. I felt (amazingly) in control, and in very little pain.

If I could chose, I'd have a delivery like my best mate. I'd rather have a good c section than a poor 'natural' delivery.

I could compare my section to either of these vaginal birth stories and come away with different psychological 'outcomes' I think. And for that matter the poor mothers who have posted with crappy C sections would be able to do the same.

And that is where the problem lies, I think. We all view birth in light of our own experiences, and those of our friends an family. So there will be real polarity of feeling on this issue.

A more helpful discussion is how we can move towards all birth experiences being a positive experience wherever humanly possible.

MB - I agree with everything you write below.

And isn't the logical conclusion of what you write that every first time mother with no medical contra-indications ought to try giving birth vaginally rather than to elect to have a c-section?

I'd agree, but would put in the rider that real phobia/overwhelming fear about a vaginal delivery would be a good enough reason to have a section.

I don't thiank that there are very many woemn who have a section because they just 'don't fancy' having a vaginal delivery. Are there? I've never met one.

And if people are swithering about what they want then a realistic evatualtion of bothvaginal and section deliveries would be the most helpful in getting someone to make a real informed choice.

I would have loved an intervention free natural delivery. It wasn't happeneing, so I had a section that was a very positive experience, which left me feeling in control and in no way a failure or second rate in terms of my birth experience.

While promoting the very obvious benefits of a natural delivery we should also avoid painting all sections are full of horror. We should also put every effort into making eveyones deleivery experiences, natural or section, positive and fullfilling.

Well posted mb.

My first delivery was like your mates, which is why I opted for section 2nd time around. No way was I going through that again

MB - well, that's what the OP is all about - preferring a c-section over a vaginal birth without a medical reason.

Actually, yes, I have met women who have had elective c-section for no medical reason. It is more common in countries where doctors have financial incentives to perform as many costly, invasive medical procedures as possible.

But if we want to encourage people to have natural deliveries then we have to be utterly realistic about what we tell them.

The best way oesn't involve saying 'Have a natural delivery, because sections are all very painful, and you can't move for days and you can't dive for 6 weeks, and you'll probably get MRSA'. Because for many, many people these statements simply are not true (some are for some and I do accept this). because if you paint an utterly Dicensian view of sections you do two things.

1. OP meets someone like me who had a good section delivery and will assume that the infor that she has been given (the correct stuff as well) is all a load of cobblers.
2. If OP does need a section later she will be scared witless and that will be crap for her.

Similarly you can't paint an 'everything in the garden is always rosy' picture of vaginal delivereies, because that isn't always the case either. And again if OP meets someone who had a crap vaginal delivery she will again doubt what we tell her.

What we need is balence in this, give her real, non-inflamatory statistics. Let her have lots of chats with confident, compitent midwives, and I'm sure in the end most women would elect for a vaginal delivery.

Scaring the shit out of people seldom changes their minds about anything, let alone somethig as emotive and personal as giving birth.

Similarly guilting people into spurning sections in case their children become deranged violent adults is unlikly to be helpful

Dickensian! Dohh!

Sure - solid, reasoned, impartial information is absolutely at the heart of all education, and this is what we are talking about - educating women into making the best possible decision about how to proceed with childbirth.

I received excellent childbirth education (in the form of NHS ante-natal classes/midwives) and ended up having a natural vaginal delivery with no pain relief in a large NHS maternity unit, when I had been living for years in the brainwashed French culture of "episiotomy + epidural is always best". So my experience of that midwife chat/education was excellent. And I didn't discuss my choices with other mothers.

But that education does have to be honest, and real. So it can't be a case of Natural Good/ Section Bad.

Good, midwife led monitoring in PG is the key. And providing the mother with continuety of care so that she can build a relationship with the midwife and build her confidence at the same time.

But in the end I think that the real distinction is between good and bad deliveries. And both can occur for either method of exit.

No, of course not.

But, going back to the earlier posts, we do seem to agree that it would be better to at least try to have a vaginal delivery . So surely that should be the general direction of the education?

I would agree, but women should not be scared into avoiding sections, or guilted into them by somewhat dodgy studies on the tenuous links between sections and later emotional control!

An in the end, if the woman really doesn't want a vaginal delivery, I don't think that she should be forced to have one.

And while in the information is being given, positive information should be give to women, if for no other reason than real discussion of section deliveries should be seen as an equally valid birth experience. In this way hopefully less women will feel emotionally cheated by having a section.

My information on section prior to delivery was, 'If all alse fails, you'll have a section- brigh big knickers if this happens'!

At the time I was expecting a vaginal delivery. Had I been already planned for a section I feel that my needs, for information on my delivery, would have been sidelined.

While hopefully increasing the numbers of women having uncomplicated vaginal deliveries, we also have to be careful not to make sections seen 'second rate'.

There have been some horrific stories about section on this thread. I feel that these women had a hellish time, which was outragious since a good section delivery is possible.

I have nothing against c-sections myself - my sister has had three totally unremarkable ones (following a first breech baby). But she did have a long recovery time after all three deliveries and has a whopping great scar now, both of which I have avoided. I'd say we were probably living walking examples of "very good c-sections" and "a very good vaginal delivery" and both of us agree that I had a better overall experience .

Maybe that's what we need to do - compare the good experiences rather than the horror stories?

Well, the education could say that while vaginal delivery is natural and what women are designed to do, not everyone will be physically suited to manage it on the day. I've been horrified by some of the comments on this thread. Totally unhelpful. One of the best pieces of advice is surely to keep an open mind and to be prepared for a CS should one turn out to be necessary. I had a vaginal delivery but (gasp) decided to stick with one child until this year, and cannot believe the kind of stupid assumptions that are made by those women who have ("heroically") had 3 kids - anything from 'Oh, you had a CS, didn't you', to 'Men, they would give up in terror after just one go, oh sorry.' I think some of us could do with viewing 'success' and 'failure' in terms unrelated to how our babies emerged from our stomachs.

Oops, x-posted with 2 others! Will go off and prepare quietly for my breech presentation check tomorrow...

Toadstool, ds was breech, footling, and I'd already had a section first time round. I'd already electred to have a section with ds, but ds's presentation and my past medical history made a section fairly inevitable. My section was great, better than the first one (which was also good) as I'd not done 2 days of no sleep an labour first!

He was given to me in the opererating theater, and I fed him in the recovery room. I could hold him before the anasthetic wore off. I was walking the next day and was out of hospital within 4 days.

It was a very positive experience

I had a VBAC (after a crash c-section first child) with my second child and there was nothing "natural" about it whatsoever. Having said that, recovery was faster than from c-section (of which I have now had 3). My body does not work well in childbirth, I like to think it is because I am highly evolved .

Toadstool - Yep, what you said!

I had exactly the same experience as Martianbishop. Elective section, which was all planned and calm, simply because ds was footling breech and still moving around right up to the final moments. Much calmer than the emergency section I had the year before with dd.

Who cares as long as they come out safely? You just have to be open minded and accept that the people in the delivery room as best placed to say what's best. It really annoyed me that my mil was so anti me having a section second time round "oh poor you" and lots of sad faces. Grr.

I'll say it again, it's the dishonesty of midwives in relation to childbirth discussions that I found frightening. Thus, I had to research the whole issue myself, and make the decision myself.

I do find it very bizarre that women still feel the need to ask 'permission' from their midwife/OB on how they will give birth (and I don't mean that offensively, it's just the culture we live in I guess).

It's not the mw's I have a problem with - it's the doctors. They are totally unprepared to enter into discussion with you and look at you like you are insane if you question them. Yesterday I was being monitored at 39 weeks plus as blood pressure had gone a bit high, midwives were excellent - the sho eventually turned up and started telling the midwife in the office what was going to happen to me - only when she forced him to he came and told me he had told the mw to give me a sweep - no discussion or anything. When he left I told the mw I didn't want one today and wanted to think about it and she was fine. No big deal, no harm done, probably not a bad idea but I couldn't believe how casually he was telling me someone was going to stick there hands up my nether regions with no discussion of why or what the aim was.

I think that, as with all professions, there are pockets of excellent practice and pockets of dire practice.

I found all the medics (doctors and MW) I met while pregnant were very open and helpful, and I'm sure this has a huge effect on my birthing outcome, and how positive it was.

This thread is really scaring me. I'm currently 37+1 and have a breech baby. I have been given only 12 hours (overnight basically) to decide whether to opt for ecv or not without getting a chance to speak to someone about MY chances of success (as opposed to the general statistics for success) so I had pretty much made my mind up that I didn't want the ecv as I was terrified of the prospect of trying something that could put my baby in danger and be painful and unsuccessful for me.

I was going to opt for an elective cs (it's my hospitals policy to advice breech babies be delivered by cs, and as a first timer I feel that option is safer for me, esp as the baby has a very big head - over the 100th percentile - and there's a chance I'd end up with a very big episiotomy and forceps to deliver the head) All these stories are terrifying me now though, I haven't read entire thread I must admit.

I do understand the reasoning for vb for a standard pregnancy, but do the arguments for cs vs vb change when there's a breech baby?

If my baby was head down I would definitely go for vb, as a first timer a vb is a scary prospect, but pain is just pain, it doesn't kill, and I'm open to the idea of medication if the pain is harder to handle than I expected. However I'm really scared about the prospect of an elective cs now too.

I have a bad feeling about attempting ecv, the baby has been breech for over six weeks and sitting in exactly the same position for that time - with his back to my right side, head under my right ribs, I wouldn't get the ecv until 38 weeks and I understand it's more successful if carried out at 37 weeks, his bottom is really deeply in to my pelvis - not engaged as such, but nearly there. I'm feeling terribly guilty about deciding to opt for the elective cs, I feel it's the best option for me, but now I'm scared I'll be an oozing mass of puss and unable to move for weeks. If I go ahead the cs will be carried out after 39 weeks but before 40, so does that mean the risks for my baby are reduced a bit too?

Just scrolling down a bit... martianbishop, thanks so much for your positive input. I was really hoping for some reassurance!

Just really quick as I really must get to bed. Get on your hands and knees for 15 minutes as often as possible. It won't do any harm and it may encourage baby to turn. As someone who has had her baby turned (without the m/w asking or telling me that was what she was going to do) make sure you have it done in hospital and be prepared that you may feel really lousy and sick afterwards.