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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Only 26% of trusts fully follow elective c-section procedure

44 replies

WhereIsBlueRabbit · 21/08/2018 06:27

I suspect this article from the BBC website confirms people's experiences here:

Women 'being denied Caesarean choice' www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45245489

In short, only 26% of trusts fully follow the NICE guidelines around elective sections and 15% have a policy of denying them outright.Hmm

OP posts:
WhereIsBlueRabbit · 21/08/2018 06:28

Does anyone know how to do a clicky link?

OP posts:
WhirlingTurkey · 21/08/2018 12:02

That's shocking! I wouldn't personally choose a caesarean myself (if not for medical reasons), but I fully support any woman's right to make an informed choice about how her baby is delivered. Although I guess the guidelines are just that, and not something trusts necessarily have to abide by?

I presume its a cost thing? Much like the IVF postcode lottery and funding for certain drugs - Trusts have to made decisions made on funding as they can't afford to follow each and every NICE guideline unfortunately. And are sections becoming more commonplace these days, which is costing the NHS more? I presume they are more costly in terms of resources than a straightforward vaginal birth, but likewise the complications from a vaginal birth gone "wrong" are also costly I'm sure.

Warmsunny · 21/08/2018 12:08

Trying to link using
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45245489

Warmsunny · 21/08/2018 12:09

Worked!

Just put before and after Grin

Warmsunny · 21/08/2018 12:15

Otherwise, yes, it's shocking. Some trusts refuse all maternal request CS, never mind if you've been sexually abused/attacked or already had a traumatic birth or just prefer this option.

There's still a long way to go before healthcare professionals stopped seeing vaginal delivery as necessarily better.
Unfortunately they're helped by antenatal books and classes that are heavily geared towards natural childbirth.

Women are adults. Give them the information and let them make their own decisions. Most will probably attempt vaginal delivery but some will choose planned c-section.

NicoAndTheNiners · 21/08/2018 12:20

I don't mean to be argumentative but it's not a proceedure that they're not following it's a guideline. Big difference.

I do totally agree that women should be able to make an informed choice and I'm angry they can't. But hospitals are allowed to not follow nice guidelines if they can demostrate why not. On any matter.

While the nhs is so underfunded it's no suprise some hospitals will look at saving money and generally a vaginal birth is cheaper.

LunaTheCat · 21/08/2018 12:24

I totally get why trusts prefer vaginal delivery unless good reason ... but if men where squeezing little human beings out of their willy’s do you think there would ever be a discussion?

BlueBug45 · 21/08/2018 13:42

@LunaTheCat lots of senior managers in the NHS are women. So it isn't just about sexism. It is actually more about saving money in the short term like a lot of other NHS practices.

enbh · 21/08/2018 16:30

I had a chance section, it was planned due to a pre existing condition, but I only knew for sure I was having one 3 days before. I had had absolutely NO information throughout the whole of my pregnancy, apart from a leaflet the day before! I felt it's almost something just glossed over as quickly as possible. Maybe to stop people 'wanting' one? I don't know. More info should be available though to allow for more informed decisions.

enbh · 21/08/2018 16:30

Chance = c section!!

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 16:44

I'm really frustrated by this. The BBC article is an abbreviated version of a full FOI request investigation by birthrights.org.uk

Frustratingly the article states simply that
It costs about £700 more to have a Caesarean, compared with a vaginal delivery.

when the full report by birthrights accurately quotes the NICE guidance in full which notes that after you take into account the cost of urinary incontinence the difference in cost drops to £84. (And that doesn't include other possible side effects). And the crucial point that NICE concluded that this difference was not enough to justify preventing maternal request CS.

The birthrights article on the subject is here

It links through to a full report which you can read here:
www.birthrights.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Final-Birthrights-MRCS-Report-2108.pdf

I've got to be honest, that I find the report itself a bit arse about face with emphasis perhaps put in the wrong places - almost to produce a shocking figure for the lazy journalists at the BBC and the entire British Press - because they are fully aware that not one of them will bother to actually read the report much less realise what the real issues are.

The headline might scream that only 26% of trust allow maternal requests but thats a bit misleading. 70% of Trusts do offer CS with some concerns and the reports own methodology is important to note:

^However, only Trusts with a written guideline on maternal request caesarean have been classified as “green”. We felt that
this provided some evidence to an ongoing service-wide consistent approach on maternal request caesarean.^

^For Trusts of a reasonable size (over 2000 births) who said they offered maternal request caesarean, or weren’t clear about
whether they offered them or not but told us that they didn’t perform any between April 2016 and April 2016 then the zero figure
provided has been taken into account when deciding on the category.^

What does this mean in practice?

This means that a Trust like Liverpool Women’s which seem to have a very good pathway for maternal request caesarean but has no formal written guideline that references its approach has been classified as an amber.

^Similarly the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow, Essex would have been categorised “green” based on the policies supplied, but
also said that it carried out zero MRCS between April 2016 and April 2017. It has therefore been categorised as an amber.^

Gloucestershire, Ashford and St Peters and County Durham and Darlington have all been categorised as “green” despite using the phrase “maternal request caesarean is not on its own an indication for caesarean” because they all went on to quote the revised NICE guideline (CG132) process in full including having a written commitment to ensuring women were referred to an obstetrician who “will” carry out the CS.

In other words the 47% of hospitals who did offer a CS under certain circumstance really were a mixed bag which ranged from simply not having a written policy to those who required a lot of hoop jumping. And even those who did make the grade, might not have a better policy than somewhere like Liverpool!!!

So its much more of a case of rather 'only 26% are allowing CS', only 26% ticked the right boxes on birthrights survey.

The key point in the report for me was actually this:
Without agreed definitions of maternal request caesareans and no comparable national data it is difficult to develop an accurate understanding of numbers and hard to develop a better evidence-base on the short and longer-term outcomes in these births. We hope that NHS England will take up this issue as it reviews national data collection.

This is something I have been banging on about for a long time. My notes state MENTAL HEALTH repeatedly in bold caps and then there is a little tick box for the reason for the CS being 'maternal request' which is quite frankly nonsensical. My mental health is not something I choose!

The report also stated this, which I do think is very relevant to a lot of women and is very different to myself:
However some Trust policies on maternal request caesarean appear to be based on the assumption that all maternal request caesareans are motivated by a fear of childbirth, as opposed to a rational reading of the evidence and how they apply to an individual’s circumstances, or concern as to the impact on another physical health condition, for example. Some women have told us that they are surprised and concerned to be treated as if they have a mental health issue, if this is not what is driving their request.

It then went on without irony to state:

Furthermore, while a debrief of a previous birth is often helpful, for women with post-traumatic stress disorder following a previous traumatic birth, interventions that focus on re-living the birth risks further traumatisation. Some women with a history of trauma may not feel able to disclose the reason for their request, despite those reasons being compelling. Therefore a one-size-fits-all pathway is not appropriate for maternal request caesarean

Despite the report advocating for written policies on maternal request CS and then down marking Liverpool for not having a written policy. Which is somewhat contridictory.

I'd rather a good pathway based on good understanding of staff, rather than a written pathway which is too monolithic supported by staff who lack a basic knowledge and common sense relating to understanding why women are requesting a CS.

I also think the following is very very important as it the thing that most highlights the need for research in this area. We are denying women access to care without the necessary evidence to understand on what grounds women are requesting a CS in the first place. How can you adequately support them - regardless of how they ultimately give birth - if you don't know this:

The reasons for women requesting a caesarean are not always well understood.

Our own analysis of our advice service enquiries on this issue between November 2016 and May 2018 reveal that a third of enquirers (33%) want a caesarean due to a previous traumatic birth.

^The second most common reason (28%) for wanting a
caesarean birth is an underlying medical condition such as symphysis pubis dysfunction (SPD) - a common problem with the pelvis during pregnancy -, vaginismus or fibroids. These conditions do not always meet the threshold of requiring a caesarean for medical reasons but the impact of these conditions on the women affected is significant, and the thought of having their condition exacerbated by a vaginal birth can be a cause of huge anxiety.^

^The remaining third is made up of women who simply believe it is the right option for them (16%), often after extensive research into the evidence, or who have primary tokophobia (8%) or who have experienced other trauma in their lives such as sexual
assault (6%). 10% did not give their reason for making this request.^

How do these women all fit into the same box?! The answer is they don't. The term 'maternal request' simply isn't fit for purpose and thats REALLY what is driving a huge inconsistency in care across the country, with hospitals each interpreting the guidelines as they want because the entire term 'maternal request' is so problematic - the hospitals just don't understand the complex and wide range of issues of the women who end up in this catergory purely because they fall through all the cracks of policy.

Maternal request as a term, is simply a way of catergorising women into a box which can be written off as 'not deserving understanding' and 'lazy/irrational/self centred/hysterical/stupid'. And thats the bottom line.

The other point is that every one of the times who are denying women a maternal request CS are failing women who have post-traumatic stress, co-morbid physical issues, severe mental health issues or are particularly vulnerable due to a prior experience. Failure to acknowledge these as a potential legitimate reasons for a CS is an abdication of their duty to patients. It also puts more pressure on neighbouring trusts who do fulfull their most basic obligation to patients to simply provide the most appropriate care for their needs as outlined in the NHS charter. (Which actually has more weight and power than the NICE guidelines on maternal request).

There is an interactive map which has the green, amber and red coding which can be found www.birthrights.org.uk/maternal-request-caesarean/

I'd urge anyone looking at it, to take it with something of a pinch of salt if green or amber and to take the time to click on any trust you are interested in and to read their FOI return to get an idea of why birthrights gave them a green or amber rating.

There is also a full list at the end of the actual report itself (which is easier to read). I'll name and shame the red trusts in another post shortly.

NicoAndTheNiners · 21/08/2018 16:48

The trust I work at would be Amber then as no written policy. But in 14 years I’ve never known a woman be refused one or indeed have to jump through too many hoops. She has to have one consultant appt where they make sure she understands the implications (like for any surgery) and then it’s agreed.

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 17:16

The list of shame, who don't give a shit about women:

• Barking Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust
• Royal Free London NHS Foundation Trust
• Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust
• Burton Hospitals NHS Foundation
• Derby Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
• George Eliot Hospital NHS Trust
• Great Western Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
• Guy’s And St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust
• Harrogate And District NHS Foundation Trust
• Hull And East Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust
• Lewisham and Greenwich NHS Trust
• North West London Hospitals NHS Trust
• Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust
• Poole Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust
• Royal Berkshire NHS Foundation Trust
• Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust
• Sandwell And West Birmingham Hospitals NHS Trust
• Southend University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• University Hospitals Of Leicester NHS Trust
• West Hertfordshire Hospitals NHS Trust
• York Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust

Who your CCG is, is also important:

The six Clinical Commissioning Groups based in South East London ( Bexley, Bromley, Greenwich, Lewisham, Lambeth and Southwark ) have a shared “Treatment Access Policy” which states that: “Caesarean section is only available for clinical reasons. Elective Caesarean section for nonclinical reasons, including maternal request, will not be funded on the NHS unless prior approval has been obtained. Such approval will only be granted if such an elective caesarean section is justified using recently published NICE guidelines. Applicants will have to document carefully how the case fulfils those guidelines." A certain amount of ambiguity over the NICE guidelines is demonstrated here, as the NICE guidelines suggest that maternal request caesareans should be funded by the NHS as long as appropriate discussion and support have been offered.

Trusts in South East London have all been classified as “red” (apart from Kings College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust who have recently updated their policy in light of the London-wide tokophobia toolkit).

In addition we are aware of a cluster of CCGs around the Thames Valley who are not supportive of maternal request caesarean. The Clinical Commissioning Groups, whose main provider is the Royal Berkshire (Newbury & District, South Reading and Wokingham), appear to support the Royal Berkshire’s policy of referring any woman making this request to other providers and state this is in line with NICE guidance.

Chiltern CCG also appears to support the policy of its main provider (Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust) of encouraging women to go elsewhere or explore private options. Swindon CCG states that its policy is to promote natural birth and states that maternal request caesarean will only be funded for a psychological reason if two consultants agree.

The Derbyshire Clinical Commissioning Groups (Erewash, Hardwick, North Derbyshire and South Derbyshire) are governed by a Derbyshire-wide policy on procedures of low clinical value which includes maternal request caesarean as an intervention that will not be routinely commissioned.

There is a further group of CCGs ( Cannock Chase, Stafford and Surrounds, South East Staffordshire and Seisdon, East Staffordshire and Wolverhampton ) which also share a policy which lists when caesareans will be funded. The list does not include maternal request as a reason which implies this would have to be funded via an individual funding request.

Other CCGs categorised as being unsupportive were Dartford, Gravesham and Swanley, Hull, Kernow, Merton and North West Surrey.

Telford CCG has recently changed their policy to not routinely commissioning maternal request caesarean.

A number of CCGs who gave an unclear answer about caesareans needing to be clinically appropriate in line with NICE guidelines have been given the benefit of the doubt in our analysis. We believe that the number of unsupportive CCGs may well be higher than 26.

Birthrights have also been in a major ongoing spat with Oxford University NHS Foundation Trust and Oxfordshire CCG which has involved lawyerss because they feel they are so poor that that are potentially actually infringing human rights.

I beleive that in order to get a maternal request, you need BOTH the trust you want to go to AND your local CCG which relates to where you live, to offer the service AND fund it. (Which is why Oxfordshire, is particularly problematic as both the trust and CCG are both working contrary to the NICE guidelines).

I fear that where this is now headed is a situation where Trusts might offer it, but unless your local CCG will cough up for this, you might hit a problem later on and some women might have a really nasty shock they are ill prepared to deal with. This means that even if you found somewhere that would offer it and were prepared to travel (which you are allowed to), you STILL might not be able to get one if your CCG won't fund it. This might block maternal requests via the back door.

I also would make the point here about funding, which not everyone is aware - there is a special pot of money which is kept separate from general maternity care which is supposed to cover mental health. Technically speaking by classifying you as wanting a cs by maternal request you are coming out of the main budget for maternity even if your request relates directly to a mental health concern which is somewhat perverse purely because there is no separate classification for having a CS on mental health grounds. I think this need to be looked at and it made sure that this situation isn't also leading inadvertantly to women finding it difficult to get a CS they NEED rather than WANT.

The entire thing needs a massive overhaul and for journalists to pull the finger out of their arses and actually see the problem as a complete failure of care for certain groups of women.

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 17:19

I know there are some epic italic and bold fails in my above posts, but I hope this helps share some of the crucial points and information from this report to a wider audience than it would otherwise get.

NicoAndTheNiners · 21/08/2018 17:19

I know an obstetrician at derby and they told me (some years ago though) thatbthey could not agree to an elective lscs for no medical need as the ccg would not pay the hospital for it. So the hospital were crazy strict as they couldn’t afford to lose that money out their budget.

GinAfterBedtime · 21/08/2018 17:30

Really interesting run-down, thank you @RedToothBrush

Babyonthewayy · 21/08/2018 17:44

Women should have a choice, as to what birth and pain relief they receive. If money is the issue then nhs should allow patients to pay the extra £700.

I don’t see how it is more Expensive when someone could be in labour for 3 days after an induction in the hospital requiring constant attention anyway.

My friend was in for 1 night only with her elective.

The care for women is ridiculous in every aspect of childbirth. I haven’t seen anyone on the NHS at 18 weeks pregnant with 1st baby. I’m being given the first “dating” appointment at 20 weeks.

Ill be requesting an elective at this appointment.

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 17:52

could not agree to an elective lscs for no medical need

except that mental health IS a medical need
and co-morbid psychical issues which are being disregarded as trival but are creating anxiety ARE a medical need.

This is why the term 'no medical need' in reference to many 'maternal requests' is so damned problematic. It neglects to acknowledge the medical need that the woman has and is shouting about when she puts in a request!

A maternal request is often the product of mental health being neglected as unimportant in the NHS. Its easier to ignore or brush under the carpet with beaucracy.

Since2016 · 21/08/2018 17:57

@redtoothbrush this is a fantastic post bravo. I’ve been granted an ELCS this time following an absolutely horrendous birth last time and an EMCS followed by baby in NICU. Unfortunately too little is understood about funding arrangements and how NICE works. They can’t force compliance. There must be a half way house somewhere.

NicoAndTheNiners · 21/08/2018 17:57

Must admit I’m not sure if she meant no physical medical need or whether she meant someone with true mental health needs would be ok but they’d have to jump through hoops of seeing some form of psychologist?

However ime a lot of women requesting an elective lscs don’t have a mental health need for wanting one and will happily say so. It’s not always due to anxiety over a vaginal delivery. It can simply be a preference and like I said earlier where I work their request will be granted no argument.

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 18:05

If money is the issue then nhs should allow patients to pay the extra £700.

THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT £700!!!! ITS £84!!!
This was calculated on urinary continence related issues ALONE. It did not take into consideration the cost of mental health.
And NICE said that a difference of £84 should NOT be a reason to deny women treatment.

The BBC are neglecting to report a really big point.

If women are given the choice to pay, that also means that there are some women who are blocked from having that option, which might be a clinical need, purely because of their income. Thats not right.

It might be money coming from different budgets but its ridiculous to deny women the health they should have - as is their right under the NHS charter - simply because the budget that benefits is run by a different set of people too!

The poor managment and understanding of this, is something tax payers should complain about. Its not good enough to use the arguement about budgets.

Its a bollocks arguement.

Also see:

Taken together, perinatal depression, anxiety and psychosis carry a total long-term cost to society of about £8.1 billion for each one-year cohort of births in the UK. This is equivalent to a cost of just under £10,000 for every single birth in the country.

Nearly three-quarters (72%) of this cost relates to adverse impacts on the child rather than the mother.

Worst still:

A broad set of illustrative estimates suggests that additional NHS expenditure of around £280 million a year would be needed in England to bring perinatal mental health care up to the level and standard recommended in national guidance. This is equivalent to extra spending of around £1.3 million a year in an average CCG. In comparison, aggregate spending on the NHS in England is around £105 billion a year, or around £500 million a year in a typical CCG.

Put another way, the estimated cost of extra provision is equivalent to about £400 per average birth. Our estimates suggest that, in comparison, perinatal mental health problems impose costs of around £10,000 per birth for society as a whole, with costs of around £2,100 per birth falling on the public sector.

Source: maternalmentalhealthalliance.org/campaign/

This is HUGELY relevant to the whole subject of maternal requests.

welshweasel · 21/08/2018 18:09

Interestingly I had a maternal choice section at Derby 2 years ago. Didn’t have to jump through any hoops and know plenty of others who had one too. So what’s happening on the ground isn’t necessarily what’s happening on paper!

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2018 18:09

However ime a lot of women requesting an elective lscs don’t have a mental health need for wanting one and will happily say so. It’s not always due to anxiety over a vaginal delivery. It can simply be a preference and like I said earlier where I work their request will be granted no argument.

The trouble is that both are being treated in exactly the same way, under the umbrella of 'maternal request' - at the expense of vulnerable women.

Thats why the term should be consigned to the history books.

Thats not to say I don't think there is room for women to make an informed decision for a CS. I think there is a very good arguement for it.

Its just that vulnerable and distressed women are being harmed as a direct result of a classification which is nonsense, outdated and frankly does has sexist roots.

BlairWaldorfsHeadband · 21/08/2018 18:10

Disgusting. I had an ELCS on maternal request and it’s an option that should be available to all.

BlairWaldorfsHeadband · 21/08/2018 18:16

However ime a lot of women requesting an elective lscs don’t have a mental health need for wanting one and will happily say so. It’s not always due to anxiety over a vaginal delivery. It can simply be a preference and like I said earlier where I work their request will be granted no argument.

Mine was a combination of preference and anxiety.

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