I don't think "too posh to push" cs should be allowed on the NHS

[SoupDragon]

And by "too posh to push" I mean can't be ar$ed to do it "naturally, want to fit the birth into a busy schedule or want it early to avoid stretch marks. That kind of thing.

Obviously where there is a medical need (and by this I include maternal fear/distress where it can not be allayed beforehand} then yes, they should be provided by the NHS.

In the same way, I did not expect the NHS to provide me with a birthing pool, pay for the electricity and increased heating costs or provide me with food for my home waterbirth.

(yes, I know this will descend into popcorn and hard hats but I don't want to clutter up the other posters thread )

Sorry, haven't read whole thread, but just wanted to add that I completely agree with MKG, when she said:

"I think that PND is also more after sections because you spend 9 months prepping for a vaginal birth and getting in the mindset for one. No one preps you for a C-section birth. Many of my friends of had PND after their emergency sections because it wasn't what they wanted and weren't emotionally prepared for it. Those that chose to have an elective for their second birth came out feeling great because they were emotionally and mentally prepared for it"

I had an 'elective' section (with heavy irony in those inverted commas... it was elective insofar as it was planned in advance, but I had total placenta praevia and neither I nor dd would have been likely to survive a natural delivery, so 'choice' didn't really come into it!). I had been planning a natural homebirth, partly because I had a deep fear of hospitals. When I was admitted to hospital and told that I'd definitely need a section I was devastated. I felt a failure as a mother before I'd even started. But what made the difference (and I think probably saved me from suffering for it after the birth) was that I had 9 weeks in hospital before dd was delivered and in that time the midwives and doctors were wonderful in taking the time to explain my condition and why there really was no option about having or not having the section. I had time to think over the way in which my dd would be born. Moreover, the fact that I could have lost her if she'd been born when I first started bleeding - or at least she could have been very very sick - did put things in perspective a bit. I think I'd have been seriously traumatised by an emergency section at that stage of my life.

Oh, and I don't for a minute doubt some of the horror stories on here. I got very very lucky in the hospital where I ended up and in the medical staff who looked after me. I will be forever grateful to them.

I had a VBAC with dd2, and like others on here I was offered another section, even though there was no overt medical reason. Again, I was very lucky as my consultant agreed with me that I stood a better chance of giving birth naturally successfully if I wasn't strapped to a monitor throughout my labour. I know a lot of women aren't given this option.

Finally (and sorry this is long), I am not convinced that 'TPTP' cases are very common. At least not among ordinary mortals.

Totally agree with Greeny about the culture of listening and flexibility.

That's where I got really really lucky.

Nothing to do with the debate at all, but when my catheter was inserted I told the midwife that I was "too posh to pee"! (thank you, drug-filled haze.)

lol pibble

Hm, I think there is a big difference between "to posh to push" and an elected C-section , iykwim....an elective C-section merely states that it is was planned in advance, but this could be for a number of reasons, and I think that a difficult traumatic Birth is a valid reason, forinstance, if the woman feels unable to face vaginal Birth. But I also think that there should be more done, in those cases where it is more an emotional reason, to council these woman, to maybe overcome this fear, etc...!
To posh to push women SHOULD imo have to pay for their C-sections....to have a C-section for your own convinence etc...is just selfish...afterall, the C-section does not just effect the mother, but also the wellbeing of a child!

no, still haven't....lets hope she is o.k.!

me too...

With my eldest, I had such a stressful pregnancy that I discussed having a section with the consultant when I was 36 weeks. After some discussion he agreed it was a possibility and we'd discuss it further at 37 weeks - at that point I was desperate just to get my baby out, and I was absolutely terrified that I would be unable to cope with a natural birth as I was exhausted and unwell. As it was at 36+6 I went into early labour, everything went well and relatively quickly and I had my beautiful boy. All my fears were unfounded, but had I gone back for my appt I would have had a section, and would have felt justified, due to my health/fears.

With my second, after an induction, I ended up in theatre anyway because of a retained placenta.

With my third I went in to be induced, and quite late on, baby had moved and was breach, therefore I ended up with a semi-elective section (ie it wasn't planned, but it wasn't an emergency) Lol, I remember them being unsure what to call it on the paperwork.

Nothing to add to the debate, really, except that I feel my fears during the latter stages of my first pregnancy were very very real to me.

How often does too posh to push really exist? The media like to push this myth, there any many reasons why births end up as sections bith planned and emergency.

11lb 7 oz was my reason first time and "not a f*$king chance was the reason second time .

Message withdrawn

hi all im now 11 weeks pregnant and on monday have to see a phyciatrist (sp??) and i might go for a c section with this one, the reasons are

with ds i was induced was in labour for over 48 hours i cant rerember much as i was in so much pain but i do rerember the pain 5 years on and can rerember shouting to dp "im going to die",

since then at 2 1/2 ds was diagnosed with ASD and all my world came tumbling down i was devastated thats when my depression and panic attacks kicked in i was convinced something was going to happen to me and ds will be left with out his mommy, my mom and dad are a great tower of strenght for me and dp and i kept on thinking they were going to die,
all day and night it was all i could think about DEATH not wanting to hurt my self but the fear of it of losing my mom,dad,dp,brother or even me,
it was like a tape recorder in my head kept on visualising my parents funeral,
thinking who will care,look after ds when im dead, thats when dp found me in the bathroom on the floor crying and being sick and saying over and over again i dont want to die, i dont want to die.
i was put on a high dose of AD and sleeping tablets and thankfully i got better, but now im pregnant an my doctor has took me off my ADs so now all these thoughts are coming back to me and im convinced that during this birth i really am going to die and our baby and ds will have no mother.
i even have nightmares that im in labour and i die.
so monday i have this appointment and 1 of the things we will talk about is a c section, as i want to make sure that i wont die and i will be here for our new baby and ds, so if i do its not that i think im to posh to push far from it, its because im scared that im going to die and im scared for my life.

I really hope you get the birth you want redbull. Everyone's experience of birth is different and at the end of the day it's between you and your doctor/consultant. It's nobody else's damned business.

Good luck.

Plibble, totally agree with you about an elective cs conferring control back to the mother. I went from starry-eyed pro-active birther for my first to disillusioned elector for my second after first birth ended up with failed induction, distressed baby and em cs.

The elective was great. I wouldn't say "empowering" but was very much what I expected and envisaged, pain included.

Normsuckers, I couldn't put it any better than you. Apart from my previous cs, I had no medical reasons to not try VBAC. But I still chose an elective for all the reasons you listed.

Bibliophile, lol! Those are dangerous thoughts ... BTW, I "made up" cost-wise for my cs with extended bf-ing.

redbullandbump

I was referred to a psychiatrist when pregnant with DD....as i had fear about the repercussions of another section...it's really important you get to resolve some of these awful things you are feeling .

there are ADs you can take while pregnant - TBH - it sounds as though you might be suffering post traumatic stress disorder....and your psych. will be the best person to help you with this and prescribe you some medication.. it's terrible you have been taken off meds and are having to relive the trauma of your previous birth. There must be something that can be prescribed to assist, aswell as therapy or counselling..

I hope all goes well for you

Norms- i agree with everything you say in your post...!every word...the maternity services fail too often....very eloquent assessment of a failing system...

tough titty soupy. It was a horrendous vag birth I wanted to avoid, and the potential repercussions on bonding, breastfeeding and parenting. I was lucky that having a CS both times was a birth choice that suited me, and turned out to be such great experiences.

Too much is made of childbirth, IMO. Get 'em out, and focus on the real work - parenting.

How sad Normsockers that you are choosing to have major surgery because of lack of confidence in your local maternity services.

It is so wrong that woman have more confidence in a surgeon than a midwife when they are giving birth.

I disagree very, very much highlander. I hate the attitude that it doen't matter how babies arrive. It does.
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but to imply that it's not important is insulting to a very large number of women, for whom it is extremely important.

TuttiFrutti, if you do not believe the NHS should pick up the costs I incurred getting the birth I wanted, why should they pick up the cost of a woman getting the unnecessary c-section birth she wants? If she wants one fine but she should pay like I had to pay for the birth I wanted. So yes, I could expect them to pay for my home comforts. Obviously I didn't though but I don't believe they should pay for no reason cs either - it's exactly the same thing. IIRCm a homebirth is actually cheaper than a hospital bith anyway so your agument about the cost of the MWs is not valid. Something like £400 compared to £600.

Greensleeves "Well, there is always a reason for fear" Yes, and in some cases it is a lack of information/understanding etc which can be "fixed" with counselling etc. That should be the first option rather than csection.

I was wondering last night why so many celebrity births are c-sections (wondering in a general way, not prying IYSWIM). Are they statistically more likely to need one or are they "lifestyle" choices? Of course, I doubt many of them are NHS births anyway.

'so if a woman says she had an "elective c-section" don't immediately crucify her as being too posh to push ' I don't think anyone has.

SittingBull (and Elf and others), no one is criticising women for having medically necessary c-sections.

As for the "too posh to breastfeed" analogy,well the thing is that the mother is expected to pay for that choice aren't they? Unless the NHS routinely pays for formula milk in your area.

Hi redbullbloodandbump. Why were you taken of AD's? Was it because of pregnancy? I was on AD's all through pregnancy and have perfect dd. Can you not ask to be put on them again? I saw a maternal phsychiatrist when I was pregnant who deals with all this sort of thing. Prozac, and amitryptiline are safe drugs in pregnancy. Hope this helps

my point exactly kitty - why is soooooooo much effort and expense poured into rosetinting the vag birth experience, yet the govt is not prepared to make the same effort in parenting courses? What will have the greatest outcome on a child's future health and wellbeing - pushing vag births or pushing parents to breastfeed and parent appropriately?

oh dear, just spotted excessive use of 'pushing'

"tough titty Soupy." What's that supposed to mean, Higlander? I'm assuming that your wanting to avoid a horrendous "natural" birth were due to fear and not simply convenience. Perhaps you've not read my posts properly because as I've stated several times. maternal fear is a valid medical reason. Convenience not and that is what I am against. Yes, I think attempts should be made to address that fear before the final choice is made but if it can not be over come, then a cs is perhaps the answer. It all hinges on what you fear the most - natural childbirth or majoy abdominal surgery. Both come with their own set of different risks, both can result in maternal death/disfigurement.

But highlander, how a woman feels about her birth experience can have HUGE reprecussions on her, her child, her family and her attitude to future pregnancies. If a woman feels angry, disappointed or traumatised but a birth experience it will affect her life and her child's life.
Vaginal birth is very important for many. many woman. It should never be implied that this is their fault because of how they view it.
I can't imagine there are many woman who would say no to the chance of an uncomplicated and empowering vaginal birth. No one wants a sh*t birth

If you want a cs, have a cs - those of us who've had them know the risks. I'm definitely having them for any future deliveries - no contest!! How empowering to have the birth I want (a natural cs), rather than be at the mercy of my local maternity unit, again, wondering if they'll actually believe I'm in labour this time and wondering if they're going to bother letting me have pain relief!!

Yes - the NHS should pay for my future cs, as it's their fault I'm so traumatised from my first birth!!! Yes - I could go for counselling, but I'm happy with the choice of childbirth.

Personally, I wouldn't have any more children unless a cs was an option for delivery. And a traumatic first birth is the reason that so many women don't have any more children - paying for their chosen method of delivery is an investment in the future.

I am so fulfilled by being a mum - it's the best thing I've ever done and for me, the nature of the birth isn't an issue. The hard work begins afterwards!! Fingers crossed for another cs in a couple of years!!

(PS - I'm not dissing anyone who's done it vaginally, it's just that us cs mums can be just as proud of the great job we're doing, too!!!)