I don't think "too posh to push" cs should be allowed on the NHS

[SoupDragon]

And by "too posh to push" I mean can't be ar$ed to do it "naturally, want to fit the birth into a busy schedule or want it early to avoid stretch marks. That kind of thing.

Obviously where there is a medical need (and by this I include maternal fear/distress where it can not be allayed beforehand} then yes, they should be provided by the NHS.

In the same way, I did not expect the NHS to provide me with a birthing pool, pay for the electricity and increased heating costs or provide me with food for my home waterbirth.

(yes, I know this will descend into popcorn and hard hats but I don't want to clutter up the other posters thread )

Phrasing it as a choice between "natural childbirth or major abdominal surgery" makes it sound like a no-brainer though - it just isn't that simplistic in reality. I think most women do realise that CS is major abdominal surgery and don't approach it lightly. However "natural childbirth" can also involve huge amounts of medical intervention - mine was more like an archeological dig than a birth, and it all ended up in thatre anyway - and can leave a woman with massive physical and mental scars. I remember being quite startled when one of the midwives a couple of weeks later said "Well, at least you managed a natural birth" . It hadn't occurred to me that that was what I had had - hooked up to monitors and drips, at least six people in the room all doing things to me with various instruments, pinned to the bed and not allowed to move for 24 hours, a transfusion, baby whisked away to SCBU, then me being rushed to theatre anyway. It didn't feel very "natural". It was confusing to be expected to be grateful that I didn't "end up with a section". It isn't a simple choice, for many women.

And I don't think we do women any favours by perpetuating the myth that "achieving a natural birth" is something to strive for. What matters is a healthy child, and a mother who isn't totally shot to shit before she's even seen the baby. I think it's between individual women and their practitioners how that end is achieved. Phrases like "too posh to push" are just hurtful and destructive IMO.

I'd agree w/Highlander on the last point of her first post - don't faint, dear! - in that too much is made out of how babies are born and the whole bf/bottle thingy.

I mean, damn, I'm 35 years old.

The way I arrived and the bottles I drank are a pretty small part of the life I've lead.

My bugbear greeny is about those people who say it doesn't matter how you give birth. That's like saying to you that it doesn't matter that you had a horrific time or were traumatised.
It matters, full stop.

There is some thought by modern thinking obstreticians, these days, that it's better to do a ecs than use forceps and avoid extreme medical intervention.

I think there's some mileage in that - I was rushed in to theatre, but found the experience great - I just laid there and they got my baby out. It was quick, simple, and we were all cracking jokes, as we were all so pleased that the long labour was over!! My recovery issues were more to do with the long labour I'd had than the cs - I healed really well and was fine to drive 4 weeks after the op.

No, I didn't mean it doesn't matter kitty - I know it matters, of course it matters.

I meant I don't like the fact that more pressure is heaped on mothers to "achieve" a certain kind of birth, which IMO adds to the grief and anger when it doesn't go that way - whether it's an unwanted C-section or a terrible vaginal delivery. I think there is a real lack of support and understanding around childbirth and women's experiences of it - and phrases like "too posh to push" and "achieving a natural delivery" don't help much. It's horrendous that in addition to the pain and trauma of a bad birth, women are carrying shame about their "performance".

And there should be better aftercare - I wasn't offered any counselling or even a chat after my nightmare delivery. I had to collar a midwife in the corridor on the afternoon I left hospital and get her to fetch my notes and draw me a little diagram, so that I could find out what damage I had (I had one big 3rd degree tear, ripped urethra/perineum and some smaller internal/external lacerations, stitched in theatre). They weren't going to bother to tell me. And I know several women who had emergency caesareans who left hospital shell-shocked and griefstricken and were not followed up properly or offered any support. It sucks .

Soupdragon, my point was that the costs to the NHS of not-breastfeeding are to do with additional cases of infections and allergies and even, maybe, increased risk of diabetes etc, and I would guess that these costs hugely outweigh the costs of women getting caesareans on the NHS for convenience reasons (if any such women exist). So if this really is all about cost, then surely you would agree that women should not be allowed the choice of not breastfeeding unless it is medically necessary?
(again, I don't think this! I think women should have a choice on both counts)
And if it is about costs, then I'd guess setting up an army of counsellors and paying for counselling would cost as much as paying for caesareans, especially as the evidence is that they don't change women's minds.

And I thought we all wanted MORE money spent on maternity services (more midwives, one-to-one midwives, birth pools, nice rooms, double beds etc etc etc) not less? Why the penny-pinching here?

Of course it matters if you had a traumatic delivery. Echoing Greensleeves here, I think its very sad that we women conspire against ourselves in perpetuating the myth that a natural birth is so very important. I think there is enormous and unrealistic pressure on - particularly- first timers, to have this wonderful natural birth with only a whiff of lavendar oil to distract you from the pain.

DS arrival might have been considered by many to have been difficult, maybe even traumatic, and my wonderful community midwives arrived afterwards ready to console and cousel me. But frankly I felt elated, proud and empowered to have carried him for 9 months. How he got out was neither here nor there.

Greeny, I totally understand. at your experience. It used to matter to me to give birth vaginally but heck, in hindsight and experiences like yours, I'd choose an unwanted cs over a traumatic vag birth any day!

Birth is just a way out into the world for baby - IMO any way. The hard work begins after.

Iam still traumatised {nine years on}at having my baby dragged out of me with forceps.I had been offered a cs earlier in my pregnany but refused insisting on a "Natural"birth.Iknew nothing about ventouse cups or forceps,except what I had read,and sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the cs as advised.I realise that I am digressing from the original question ,sorry!

couldn't agree more, blu

I don't think it matters all that much - don't remember how I came in to the world!!!

Of course people have "lifestyle" cs's. I know several women who simply didn't want to give birth vaginally, so they trotted along to their consultant & fabricated stories about husbands with huge heads, mothers who nearly died in childbirth. A consultant is very, very unlikely to say 'no' in case anything were to go wrong if you had a vaginal delivery & you then tried to sue him.
I don't really care that much. Its a choice on offer, if they want to have major surgery that is up to them. There are people leaching the NHS dry left, right & centre - at least a cs does generally have a positive outcome.

Have to say I agree totally with GreensleevesWell on this thread anyway

hi fizzbuzz my doctor took me of my ADs as yes im pregnant i was on citrolopan 40mg, he said the baby would be born with the shakes and there hadnt been done much reasearch in to my ADs during pregnancy, mind you this was from a doctor who had to look it up in several books as we sat their

Haven't read all of these but seems to be a lot of arguing about cost for NHS. I had an emergency CS with DS and personally do not see a problem with elective CS. If we are talking about cost surely we can say fat people should not be treated because it is their own fault and smokers etc. I know I keep myself healthy and don't smoke and do regular exercise and (touch wood) have never been in hospital and only go to Drs for pill. So surely if I want to have an elective CS I can. Is this not what we all pay our NI for? So we can have choices.

It would be a huge, massive saving to the NHS if ALL operations were done with local anaesthetic, like caesareans usually are. Not sure everyone would go for that though.

I find generally that the people who want elective caesareans to be subject to more stringent criteria are the same people who would refuse treatment to continuing smokers or people obese due to overeating etc. It's a philosophy I find easily understandable - I can see the "logic" - but could never subscribe to personally, because I find it judgemental, dangerous and oversimplistic.

Helen, you don't remember , but I'm sure your mother does !!

Gurrier, your situation is precisely why cs should not be devalued as a valid and viable birth option.

If I were in your shoes as a first time mum, I would have chosen to persist and ended with forceps like you did. After 2 cs (one em, the other elective), I would definitely have given an early cs a lot more consideration. I chose elective second time round precisely to avoid having to make the choice you had to

redbull- don't know if you saw my post of 9,23 am

a psychiatrist will have expert knowledge and will be able to prescribe you something ..

I personally agree that we cannot say "you can't have this done because you smoke, etc" otherwise surely anyone that does dangerous sports or tries to commit suicide would be in same bracket. The NHS is not here to judge it is here to help people.

IBAMY, yes we have some choices, but we can't have evrything we want beacuse there isn't enough amnoey to go round, perhaps there should be but there isn't.

God, it must be Halloween

I agree that it seems odd that the same people who say the NHS can't afford some cs also want the NHS to spend much, much more on midwives, pools etc. How does that work?