I don't think "too posh to push" cs should be allowed on the NHS

[SoupDragon]

And by "too posh to push" I mean can't be ar$ed to do it "naturally, want to fit the birth into a busy schedule or want it early to avoid stretch marks. That kind of thing.

Obviously where there is a medical need (and by this I include maternal fear/distress where it can not be allayed beforehand} then yes, they should be provided by the NHS.

In the same way, I did not expect the NHS to provide me with a birthing pool, pay for the electricity and increased heating costs or provide me with food for my home waterbirth.

(yes, I know this will descend into popcorn and hard hats but I don't want to clutter up the other posters thread )

not only do I not care about the cost because I pay my taxes, I also think about the other zillions of things that I dont claim for / get (like an NHS dentist) and think it evens out in the end.

buktus - totally agree which is why I only ever refer to mine as vaginal as I think 'normal' or 'natural' can be inflammatory and I think we all have enough hang ups to deal with!!! At the end of the day giving birth is giving birth no matter how you do it, you still produce a baby at the end of it and do all you can to make that happen so why does there have to be a big deal made of how you did it?

Define convenience and necessity. What is convenient for me may be necesity for you. People may think it is convenient for someone who had a terrible birth to opt for a section in order not be traumatized again (the whole idea of not being a wimp about it), for that person it may be necessary in order to help their mental state of mind.

there are three women with children in my department at work. Between us we have four kids.
First woman has one dd - born by section, 2 weeks overdue after failed induction and labouring and getting nowhere in 48hrs
Me - one dd, "planned" section due to footling breech & pre-eclampsia
Third woman has two dd's - one born naturally, the other last week by section due to breech positioning and too low waters to turn.

None of us are too posh to push, we're all as common as muck

But I do get fed up of people trying to imply I cost the NHS (let alone missing out on the experience of natural birth).

To me, there shouldn't be a limit on the price to bring my dd into the world in the safest way possible, and to me, that was a section.

I bet my botched "birth" (disgraceful drawn-out butchery) with ds1 and its aftermath cost more than two planned C-sections. Childbirth jst doesn't fit well into statistical generalisations. It is too individual an experience and there are too many variables.

Well imo convenience would be for things like ' I want my kids to have the same birthday' or 'I'm supposed to be at a party that day' or 'i don't want to do all that pushing thing' whilst necessity would be things like SB's story or my friend with the breech.

i am all for choice ......and would never seek to condemn anyone for their birth choice...in my opinion.....it is the FEAR surrounding birth that needs to be addressed......

an elective for sound medical reasons is not an issue...but it says something about birth, when the phrase 'too posh to push' has become common parlance...and gets banded about willy nilly....

an MPs wife even wrote about it..called herself 'too smart to suffer'- had elective CS as didn;t want the pain of vaginal birth and thought it was too risky... is that a sound medical reason....?

I guess the question of "TPTP" gets raised because there are a number of women who need a planned c/section, but then get a certain amount of choice with the date. So yes, I did get my hair cut a couple of days before the birth, I chose the date that suited me most; that date worked well for dh's work, and his paternity leave was well-planned, and I had help onhand post-birth (all arranged weeks before).
Given the very negative press that c/sections seem to get I suspect that friends/acquaintances would have focussed on these aspects, and concluded that it was a case of "tptp" rather than focussing on whether there was any medical reason for the c/s.

In some respects I can understand it - if one is counting the various blessings of an elective c/s, then they usually include matters of vanity and convenience in addition to the fact that it is also the safest outcome for mother and baby.

I do not see 2nd time, elective csections as 'too posh to push'.

Sorry, but a LOT of women I know personally who had elective c-sections 2nd time round had very traumatic first labours. Some probably should have got their csection long before they did.

I think forcing women to VBAC is wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's none of my goddamned business how a woman gives birth, how she choses to feed her baby - bf or bottle.

I have WAY bigger things to worry about regarding the NHS.

Don't want to pay for elective csections? Where do we draw the line? B/c you can also say that it shouldn't cover fertility treatments if you adopt that line of thinking.

think that over inflated wages of bureaucrats within the NHS could also do with cutting - perhaps then hoospitals would not be facing the crises that they face - a gov't willing to spend money sensibly and appropriately is also an issue. Or bureacrats who help themselves to NHS funds ( as happened at one of dh's old workplaces)

Don't want to get into too posh to push argument - believe each woman has the choice to make for herself and it is not my place to judge her for that.

Fwiw - I had an emergency c-section from having an ultrasound to a c-section and a baby born - very seriously ill - I did not feel that I had given over my sense of power - I felt relieved that my baby has been born instead of being left to die in the womb. I was pleased she was out and being cared for.

I was one who was adamant that I would not have a c-section only cause I am a wuss when it comes to things like that - prime candidate for pnd - no issues. I realised that having dd1 then and there was the only option if i was to still have dd1.

Had an elective with dd2 - for lots of reasons and you know what - convenience was a huge factor. Dd2 was already 10 days over and showing no sign of appearing. My dh was due to start a new job any day ( ended up being the day I had the c-section) was not able to have any time off other than the day I had surgery. Had a 2yo with sn and no ready childcare. At least sorting the day that dd2 would arrive meant I could put measures into place to make sure all my children were cared for whilst I was in hospital.

No3 - going for another section - again now have a 4yo with sn who needs to be cared for and needs to attend various appts etc. Whilst dh will have some time off - I can organise appropriate care for my children whilst I am having surgery and in hospital post c-section.

Well aware it is major surgery - have the scars to prove it. Just lucky I have recovered very well and relatively quickly each time.

When people describe a positive birth experience, it seems to involve some element of empowerment or feeling in control.

My DD was born following a horrible labour and emergency section. From the second we walked into the hospital I felt out of control.

I have been told that I need to have any further children by elective section, but if this wasn't the case I would still elect to have sections because this will give me a feeling of control. For example, I will be able to walk to theatre, to choose the music being played, to meet the doctor in advance and to hold my baby when it is born (rather than feeling too ill to hold him or her safely).

Despite this I do not regret trying to have a vaginal delivery the first time. If I had succeeded, I am sure that that awful labour would have seemed incredibly worthwhile. So, contradictory as it might seem, I think that unless there is a medical reason, first time mothers ought to attempt a vaginal delivery or go private. For subsequent births I think that women should get a choice, as any decision that they make will be informed by experience and not just by fear of the unknown.

Incidentally, I am told that because of the way the NHS does its accounting, emergency sections cost more than elective ones. Don't quite understand it myself, but there it is.

I have heard of women though wanting sections beacuse they don't want to get "stretched" down below

"From the second we walked into the hospital I felt out of control"

Not suprising really!!

"I have been told that I need to have any further children by elective section"

Why is that if you don't mind me asking?

Apparently my pelvis is inadequate (poor thing - I know how it feels!) I know there are people out there who are told the same sort of thing who go on to VBAC, but after getting 2 opinions on the subject I have decided to let it rest (for the moment anyway!). Especially because I really don't care how my babies are born, so long as we both finish up in one piece.

Plibble...after my emergency c.s..had an MRi scan to check the size & shape of my pelvis....it is rare, but occasionally, a womans pelvisis genuniely too small or the wrong shape to facilitate vaginal birth......

my scan showed all was well and i went on to have a vbac

if you are happy to have another c.s that's great..it;s being able to make a decision, to be in possession of the facts and know it is right for you..and feel in control..

Should all women be forced to at least have a 'trial of breastfeeding'? After all statistics show that formula fed babies have more infections and allergies and thus cost the NHS more money than breastfed babies, so on cost grounds alone should women be allowed to be 'too flighty to feed"? After all, it's not that hard and it's perfectly natural and just part of having babies.
Of course I don't really think anything like that but surely it is the same argument as the one for banning maternal choice caesareans on the NHS?

actually you might have something there bibliophile

And maybe those who don't want to breastfeed should have compulsory counselling?

(again, I don't think that!!)

southeastastra- don't know if someone answered this, but a lot NHS consultants also have private lists- at least at my local hospital.

I had a natural birth with ds1, who was stillborn (he would be nearly 5 now ) and got pg again almost immediately. Spent the duration of my pregnancy petrified and opted early on for a c-section.

Unfortunately this went very badly tits up, with a massive pph and scarring. Ds2 was fine (4 last week!) though. Since had dd, also by section, as my scarring is too bad to attempt another natural birth. This means that if I have another baby, it will be by section and be the last one. If I could go back, I would have had ds2 naturally, but wasn't brave enough at the time.

Greensleeves amd at your experiences and so for you, but really glad you came through it and have two lovely boys.

Just re-read this post, and realise it doesn't add much to the debate but wanted to contribute my experiences anyway!

Bibliophile, you are giving her Ideas

I was going to make similar comparisons when I first posted on this thread, but I decided I'm too tired to get in that much trouble - I'd not have phrased it as well as you, Bibliophile.

Oops...!

3littlepumpkins, so about your terrible experience too. I think every experience shared adds something to this debate. It's so clear that generalisations and blanket rules are a bad mistake in this area of medicine where a culture of listening and felixibility would be so much more appropriate.

It always amazes me what a contentious issue this is!!

Can't fault anyone going for an elective cs - it's down to your own personal choice and none of us can tell another woman what to do - we live in a democracy, you know!!

I have no medical reason that I'm aware of for needing one but after an emcs with my first and a very long labour, I wouldn't want any more children unless an elective could be promised. I'm aware of the risks with both forms of delivery and have done my research, but for me a cs is just fine - although I'm going to try the 'natural cs' route. And, as a midwife friend said to me, "What's the point of ruining both bits!!?" Obviously that's not her official line!! I'm horrified that anyone else feels it's any of their business!! For me, an elective cs will redress the balance of a horrific and traumatic "natural" labour experience!!

Good luck, Pibble and the rest of you wanting cs - and congrats on those of you brave souls who went for a vbac!!

(PS - I think an ecs is more expensive than an elective, as an ecs is often the cost of the cs and virtually all the cost of a vaginal delivery as they're done near the end)