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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

My dh just informed me that....

90 replies

BekkiKay · 17/01/2004 20:02

if women in childbirth would just be quiet and go off on their own behind a bush it would be easier, safer and the more natural way to do things.
I've argued until I was blue in the face that there is no such thing as natural and how could keping quiet help the birth process. He has just said thats what plains indians do. Before we kill each other in this debate could someone shed some light on childbirth in times past or less developed countries. Statistics very welcome-Zebra?

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hmb · 17/01/2004 21:04

Well, if I had tried that I would have died and so would my dd, but apart from that it sounds like a realy good idea!

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:04

Pupuce, may I also add a lucky labour to the list ?

pupuce · 17/01/2004 21:05

What do you mean by lucky?

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:12

lucky that nothing bad happened of course, that the baby didn't have so much a strain that he needed to be taken out as a mater of emergency because if he had been there for a couple of minutes more he would have died, but well, that's just my own case but, who knows maybe the problem was caused by the presence of midwife and DH in the room?

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:13

no intention to cause offense btw

pupuce · 17/01/2004 21:15

Hey - if we can't express a different opinion without some resorting to the "well I or my baby would have died...." then I'll shxx up - I was unaware that we all had to agree with Bekki..... thought mumsnet was more open minded

pupuce · 17/01/2004 21:15

oops posts crossed

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:21

Yes and the fact that we think different doesn't mean that either one of us is wrong, I'm sure that for some people going behind a bush would could work wonders, as I'm sure that for many others it would have been a catastrophe, I just believe that if somebody decides to go solo she needs to ponder the consequences and be sure that there's someway to know if something is getting wrong and be able to realise on time to get help before is very late.

Unless I were a midwife (I am not) who can identify if something is getting wrong and is not part of 'normal' things that happen at childbirths, I would probably not risk it.

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:22

postcrossed again!!! but tell me, have you done it that way? how was it?

suedonim · 17/01/2004 21:25

The maternal death rate in Indonesia is something like 235 per hundred thousand (although I have seen figures that estimate it as high as 650 per hundred thousand). Those women certainly aren't making any noise.

Maybe your dh would like to read this short article about the advantages of skilled attendants .

pupuce · 17/01/2004 21:27

No I have not but was very quiet the 2nd time around, it is all about birth physiology but allow me not to get into it tonight.... I need to get off line. I have witnessed a few very quiet (and indeed) natural births myself.... it doesn't have to be a horror scenario for everyone.

I do know women who have done it (unassisted) - this is not something I encourage BTW but it does exist... so does orgasm when birthing - which has been ridiculed on mumsnet before too.... shame that some can't see past their own experience to understand that there can be (for some) another way. BTW didn't perosnally experience the orgasm either

Chandra · 17/01/2004 21:42

However painful it was I didn't considered it horrific, I tryied to go through it without anesthetics and those 12 hours with long contractions every three minutes made me ask for anesthesia but during the three minute space between them I found myself telling the midwife that I could still cope (while I could have scream murder while on them...).

suedonim · 17/01/2004 21:47

Surely there's a difference between giving birth naturally, which Pupuce supports, and giving birth alone, which I think Bekkikay's dh proposes. Pupuce is a 'skilled attendant' who is able to spot when something is going wrong and help correct it to allow birth to take place. That's a whole different ball game to a malnourished woman labouring without support.

Most of the deaths in Indonesia are caused by anaemia in the mother. They don't need hi-tech stuff, they need someone skilled in diagnosing anaemia, and iron tablets, which are cheap and simple.

pupuce · 17/01/2004 21:59

Thrid world countries also have the issue of lack of hygiene, malnourished mothers,....
For those of you who are interested in reading about doing it naturally (and believe me it can be done!) - there is Michel Odent's stuff and more "natural" publications like "The Mother" magazine or the www.birthlove.com website.
I have worked with quite a few mums who swore they'd get an epidural... they didn't (for various reasons) and could not believe they did it without any pain relief... if you feel secure in your labour (and that usually means that the birth partner you have chosen is in his/her own way making you feel secure/protected/ensures your privacy "like birthing behind a bush" you can handle even the most horrendous contractions (no one said it was always easy) and deliver without pushing.... unfortunaltely many MW don't even know that it is possible and are only to keen to get in with gas and air, pethidine/diamorphine or the epidural ("get a grip, there is no need to shout!".... I have seen that too !
Must get off line.....

Chandra · 17/01/2004 22:01

I appreciate that, I was thinking about those cases when everything seems to be well and something totally unexpected happens at the last minute like baby going into a difficult position like getting himself strangled with the cord, or finding out there's not enough space for the baby to come out naturally... I didn't know she was a skilled attendant which make the option of going solo safe for her, I just wonder how many people could go into this without being able to recognise a potential problem and then suffer from fatal consequences, that's all...

Chandra · 17/01/2004 22:02

I appreciate that, I was thinking about those cases when everything seems to be well and something totally unexpected happens at the last minute like baby going into a difficult position like getting himself strangled with the cord, or finding out there's not enough space for the baby to come out naturally... I didn't know she was a skilled attendant which make the option of going solo safe for her, I just wonder how many people could go into this without being able to recognise a potential problem and then suffer from fatal consequences, that's all...

Clarinet60 · 17/01/2004 22:13

Did you hear that, willow2? We should have just gone behind a bush and shut the f* up and we'd have been fine!!!!!!!!!

Clarinet60 · 17/01/2004 22:16

Actually, before I had DS1, and having heard about the horrors of intervention, I was tempted to go it alone when labour began. I thought I'd just stay in the bath at home until the last possible moment, as I'd read that water and relaxation lessened the pain.
Hahahahahahahahaha.

Chandra · 17/01/2004 22:26

Pupuce, I come from a third world country and eventhough I assume you don't want to generalise the issue of higyene is not necessarily worse than at England... I am not saying that all hospitals in England are in bad condition but was rather shocked to see that the doctor who had to take my child out at the last moment was wearing gloves but something fall to the floor and she was looking for it with her hands placed ON THE FLOOR, she just found what she lost and continued with me without changing his gloves, and... I found worms in ths shower of the post delivery room, curiously I have also found them in another hospital 30 miles from home when my DS had to had an operation, so first world doesn't always mean cleaner...

Lisa78 · 17/01/2004 22:33

lovely image there Chandra!

Chandra · 17/01/2004 22:36

Having said that, the midwives were GREAT, so I just went home as soon as I was permited to and everything was fine.

hmb · 18/01/2004 01:20

I don't doubt for one minute that other women have easier labours than I did. My best friend had a 100% medication free delivery with her first child and I have several friends who have had uncomplicated home deliveries.

However I am not resorting to telling you that I would have died without medical intervention. It is the plain and simple bald truth! In the 'natural' world I should have died, because my body is not well suited to delivery.....natural selection would dicatate that women like me should be got away with! (: ) not that I'm say I think that is a good idea)

At the turn of the 19th centuary in Britain, basic hygine methods were in place and giving birth was still 4 times more dangerous than being a miner (the most dangerous job at the time).

Mother nature can be fine, but some of us needed a better midwife! I accept your position from your point of view. I don't think that I am out of order for pointing out mine am I?

hmb · 18/01/2004 08:28

Oh, and if you dh is such a fan of the plaines indians are you going to tell him that he will have to pass up on his car? Plains indians did an excellent job of moving round vast areas of North America using horses and 'sled' type arrangements pulled behing the horses. They never invented the wheel, didn't need them. So he is going to give up his car isn't he? The Plains Indians were far more envionomentaly friendly and 'natural'

As an aside a fiend of mine is a midwife. She is very 'pro' home births, very keen on minimal intervention, had 2 home births herself. She has only witnessed one silent birth. The woman was a member of the Plymouth Breatheren. They take the bibly literaly and veiw the pain of childbirth as Gods punishment on Eve for tempting Adam. So the women try not to cry out....nice!

hmb · 18/01/2004 08:54

Re some statistics, I found these on a website supporting India women in the right for safe motherhood. I have seen similar statistcs elsewhere and have no reason to doubt them.

Please realise that these are statistic for women who have a range of other problems rising out of ther poverty and I am not saying these statistics would be the same in the UK if we all went for non-medical delivery. But the stats do support that large numbers of deaths do occur cause by conditions that have nothing to do with poor nutrition, and everything to do with not having a trained birth attendent and access to furter help eg blood transfusions.

'Every minute, one woman somewhere in the world dies from a complication related to pregnancy or childbirth. This is almost 600,000 women a year, worldwide. Ninety-nine percent of these deaths occur in developing countries (1,2). In India, one woman dies every five minutes from a pregnancy-related cause.
For every three deaths of women in their reproductive years in some developing countries, one is the result of complications from pregnancy and childbirth.15 percent of deaths of women in the reproductive age in India are maternal deaths.
Complications related to pregnancy, childbirth and complications arising out of unsafe abortion are leading causes of death in adolescent girls (3). In India, 50 percent of maternal deaths of girls in the 15-19 years age group are due to unsafe complications arising out of unsafe abortion(7).

The underlying causes for maternal mortality are poor health and nutrition, lack of physical access to healthcare (including transportation and finances), medical causes and socio cultural factors that obstruct and underplay the importance of healthcare for women.

These contribute to the Four Delays:
Delay in identifying a complication; delay in making a decision to seek treatment; delay in getting the woman to the healthcare center; delay in receiving quality treatment.(3)

Over 80 percent of maternal deaths in India, as elsewhere in the world, are due to six medical causes: hemorrhage, eclampsia, obstructed labor, sepsis, complications arising due to unsafe abortion and pre-existing conditions such as anemia and malaria. All of these can be treated in a hospital or First Referral Unit that has emergency facilities for obstetric care and skilled medical personnel.(6)'

I have not posted the whole article, those who are interested go to www.whiteribbonalliance-india.org/factsandfigures.htm

And I do recognise that child birth for women in the developed world is not the same. I fully accept that many women have low intervention/no intervention deliveries. But for those of us that develop compications, or have a dangerous presentation (ds was a very large footling breach) all the positive thinking in the world wouldn't have mattered. Some of us need intervention and this is part of the reason for the difference between developed and developing country statistics. To deny this is to deny reality.

BekkiKay · 18/01/2004 09:22

Just to clarify- this is my husbands point of view not mine. I believe that we should be assisted by supportive women, a midwife is great but anyone with experience in childbirth would have been fine for me. And scream as much as you like, I was silent throughout both labours but thats what helped me to get through it.
As soon as hes awake I'll bombard him with this information. He won't back down though hes the most opinionated man I've seen. I might just leave out the part where Pupuce defends his point of view though.

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