Avoiding negative reinforcement of labour experience. Bloody impossible it would seem?

[ChineapplePunk]

This is just going to be a moan thread, so be forewarned. :)

I absolutely understand that my impending childbirth is, by it's vary nature, an unknown scenario, and I am fully aware that anything can happen and an open mind is essential. However, when trying to adopt a positive attitude towards childbirth, it would seem that you are fighting a losing battle. At every turn the media, the public, AND the medical profession constantly push the idea of unbearable pain, inevitable intervention, and trauma.

I've just completed a hypnobirthing course and absolutely accept that my birth experience can be a fulfilling, trauma-free, and manageable process (barring any unforeseen medical emergencies, and even then, I feel that I have the tools to cope with this). I guess I'm just PO'd with the barriers that are in place when trying to maintain a positive outlook, which is at the core of preparing for a natural, calm, and relaxed birth. It's difficult to not let these negative reinforcements mess with your head. A case in point - DH and I attended a physio/antenatal class this week and the physiotherapist started the introduction with, "I'll try to make this class as quick and painless as possible, UNLIKE your Labour"!!!!???? And then had the audacity later on in the class to stress the importance of staying positive and relaxed in regard to labour, as "tensing up" is one of the worst things you can do. She also peppered the class with little clichéd molten droplets of wisdom such as, "they don't call it Labour for nothing". Yawn.

It would seem to me that, short of living in a bubble for the next two months, the negative reinforcement that women receive is absolutely unavoidable. In saying that, at least this rant proves that I am going to rally against this BS at every available opportunity and return my head to "the good place". :-)

Not read every post so in reply to OP...

I felt exactly the same during my pregnancy, I'm petite and got asked by lots of people when I was booked in for my CS. When I responded that actually I'm planning a homebirth I used to get all kinds of negative responses, don't I know it's painful, surely I'm not big enough blah blah blah. In the end I avoided talking to people about it. Luckily the NCT course I did was really positive about all kinds of birthing methods and really informative about all the technical stuff, I felt very informed but really confident as well.

I think when people know you haven't done it before they like to tell you what it'll be like and unfortunately people love to disagree. That's what I found anyway and it irritated the life out of me.

I didn't manage my homebirth and ended up with a lot of intervention but this was for a medical reasons. If I'd gone into labour on my own instead of being induced (which was my choice) then I may well have had the homebirth I'd wanted and if we're lucky enough to have a next time we'll plan a natural birth again. Even with all the intervention it wasn't horrific at the time. I have had to deal with the I told you so's though and that's even more irritating!

"I think people who've had bad birth experiences may need to talk about them more." I think that's right.

I also fully believe in the power of your mind, so stay positive and ignore all the negativity!

agree misslinnet & tinytinyclanger

HardCheese - I suppose what it is that annoys me is that the type of birth I have no choice in having is always seen as 'awful' and 'what to avoid'. It doesn't have to be like that, I agree with ayearoverdue - it's all in the mind and you make what you will of things water birth or stirrups.
Who says cuts, instruments and stirrups are bad?! Not me!

Do women tell these horror stories about terrible labour to show how much they suffered etc? Drives me mad. Women have been doing it for 1000s years and will continue to do so, even really wimpy women do it, some again and again, so it can't be that bad. I myself DID find the pain a bit much after being induced so had an epidural and all was very uneventful. P with no 2, so going to look up hypno birthing.

AdiVic, for some people it really is that bad. I'm glad that the epidural worked for you, for example, it didn't for me! You have no idea what that was like. I'm glad that you found your birth manageable, but every birth is different.

"Women have been doing it for 1000s years and will continue to do so, even really wimpy women do it, some again and again, so it can't be that bad."

That's particularly unkind, shortsighted and anti-woman IMO. (Yes I'm aware you're female).

The implication that if someone suffers in birth they must be particularly wimpy is so far from the truth to be laughable, but also a particularly nasty thing to say IMO.

Also I'm not going to go into it too much on this thread, but you must be aware surely that the mortality rate for women and babies not very long wasn't great. Yes women have been doing it for 1000s of years, but - before modern medicine - it was a particularly dangerous thing to do.

Status has purely changed because consultant says that a PPH in labour one means high risk in labour two, in so much as I can't use the MLU. Especially as am anaemic. May all be academic as baby is still breech I think. Anyhoo, I'm not that fussed as I will deal with the circumstances nearer the time, I'm just working on foetal positioning, diet etc, all the things I can control or work on at the moment.

I think that it is difficult to say that you (generic, not aimed at a poster) find it annoying that all you hear about is pain and suffering etc. Simply because you hear about it because it happens! If most people say that they found labour horrendous, maybe that is because in most cases it is horrendous. Dealable, yes, which is why single child families are uncommon. It doesn't make those women wimpy in any way, or less positive, or prepared or whatever, and to discount their experiences as scare mongering or the like because it doesn't fit with the ideas that you hold is both insulting and naive until you've been there.

I had the opposite experience from the OP at antenatal classes. Our leader didn't even recognise that birth could be painful - choosing to use the word intense.

Afterwards, every single person agreed that their labour HAD been painful. Not awful always, some were brilliant births over quickly with no tearing. (Some were truly gruesome.) But certainly not intense except in the intensely painful sense.

FWIW, the people I know who have gone into labour expecting the worst have come out best. Some have been thrilled by their "easy" births while others were unsurprised by how hard it was. The only people I know who have been diagnosed with PTSD after birth all thought they would be hypnobirthing and it would be a beautiful experience. They were shocked to the core when this didn't happen.

However, I completely accept this is my experience and there are probably zillions of people who have amazing hypnobirthing stories. And I do know one woman who fancied a curry after her wonderful hypnobirthing home birth and got up to make one three hours after giving birth!

Sigh. I can't help feeling that my point has been completely missed by some. Never mind. Onwards and upwards. :)

Yes indeed Pineapple

No, I did get your point about it being hard to stay positive as there is lots of negative reinforcement and just mentioned that I had the opposite experience - my friends and I felt there was lots of positive reinforcement in our antenatal classes but the experience wasn't positive for the majority of us!

Anyway, I do hope your birth is positive and you overcome the gloombags - sorry if you feel I deviated from your initial point.

And my point was that even if it does end up in intervention, epidural, theatre and the works it can still be a positive experience. It's all about your own mental place.

Which is exactly what I have been saying also. Never suggested that intervention would automatically be a negative experience, in fact, I said that even if something unforeseen occurs then I feel that I am in a much better place to deal with it.

It's difficult.

You see I would have agreed with you totally, pre-birth!

But, having experienced birth, you're kinda barking up the wrong tree.

I absolutely don't think it's against our interests that the media etc talk about how painful birth can be, and the interventions that can happen.

Having actually experienced birth, I would say people actually don't talk enough about the reality of it! I feel strongly that knowledge is power and I felt unprepared for my birth as I had spent too much time focusing on positive outcomes and had not seriously considered others!

No amount of positive thinking would have helped in my case, or many others. My labour hurt, enormously because:

• my baby was very big
• I was induced
• the epidural didn't work (this is rare people, please don't let this worry you unduly!)

That's not to say that you shouldn't go for it. Hypno birthing is a great tool, and your state of mind can help, of course.

But if what you're asking for is for everyone - medical professionals included, to focus only on the positive then that would be incredibly irresponsible IMO - giving people massively false expectations. I'm afraid it comes across as very naive - a comment which would have annoyed me pre-birth, but from the other side that's how I see it now.

Despite experiencing a less than pain free birth, I am planning to do it again. Because it wasn't that bad? No, I can't say that. But because I have a beautiful son, and I can say without hesitation that it was worth it. It may well be very painful again (hopefully not) but I know it won't last forever, I will get through it, either "naturally" or with intervention.

At the end of this process, you will be a mum, and have your baby. That's the important bit.

Hopefully you will have a lovely completely "natural" birth, with little pain. Heck, I hope you have an "orgasmic birth" (Have you seen the videos of it? That's the kind of birth I want! )

But if you don't it's very unlikely the media, or people warning you that it could hurt will be to blame! The pain IME is very physical and when it gets past a certain point it's simply not about mind over matter. A big baby is a big baby for example, you can't imagine it smaller!

But - even if you feel pain - you will cope. You will be strong, and get through it and have your baby at the end, and it will be worth it.

I will add to tiny's post which is excellent that the idea that our society downplays the pain of labour as part of the oppression of women is a valid one. Men only ever talk about labour as 'uncomfortable' ime.

I object to that and the portrayal of pain relief free water type births as the 'ideal'. Annoying as fuck in my opinion!

I object to the lack of any physiologically normal births on soap operas and other TV drama. When's the last time a waterbirth or homebirth was featured on one? When's the last time a woman was in any position other than lying on her back with her feet in stirrups, or on her back semi-upright on a bed? Name a piece of TV or cinema fiction where a woman is not screaming in pain while she gives birth, or where she's kneeling? An example where the fictional midwife is hands-off and the mum is not shouted at to "push push push" while holding her breath and turning purple? An example where quiet music was playing and the lights dimmed?

Saying these things are almost totally absent is not to deny that other sorts of birth exist. But do we really need to talk about and see only those births ALL the time? It's just saying that in our culture straightforward uneventful vaginal birth that isn't highly medicalised in one way or another is rarely shown, so we see the 'norm' as the exact opposite. I guess ordinary birth is just not as dramatic .

Having said that, 2 such births have been shown on this series of OBEM -both water births.

By the way, lots of mums who use hypnobirthing have very comfortable births even when they are induced or other special circumstances apply. Lots report the techniques are enormously helpful for caesarian births too. Given that people can undergo medical procedures (eg at the dentist) or even operations using just hypnosis, I don't find it too much of a stretch that many women are capable of using the techniques to ensure a comfortable birth. There is good scientific research that shows hypnosis to be effective. This is not to say all hypnobirths are pain-free, but in the main more manageable. Part of the way it works is through conditioning, i.e. re-inforcing the things you expect to happen. coming onto a positive thread like this and going on and on about things the OP would like to avoid actually make it harder for that process to be successful. I think this is the point a lot of people are missing.

I think it goes both ways, sometimes people say that it is nothing, or just "uncomfortable" (this is Dr speak, uncomfortable= painful, really uncomfortable = peeling you off the ceiling) but then some people say it's the worst pain you can ever possibly have.
I disagree on both points. Yes there are aspects of labour that are painful, but equally it's a different kind of pain, it's productive, and it comes and goes. I didn't realise until I was in antenatal classes that inbetween contractions, there is no pain. Unaugmented contractions build gradually, (which allows for psychological/meditative/hypnobirthing techniques) then fade away to nothing.
I once lay on a ward for 5 days with an undiagnosed rotting appendix, the intensity of the pain was less, but there was no relief, it was just constant 24 hours, unbearable without morphine which left me able to do nothing but stare at the ceiling and drool.

I wouldn't want to go through that again, birth on the other hand, I'm kind of looking forward to.

I had an awful first birth and a brilliant second.

The first birth was awful because I wasn't prepared - I'd felt positive about it throughout my pregnancy and was looking forward to it but when the contractions became painful I had no idea how to cope. I ended up with an epidural and interventions.

The second birth I read as much as I could about dealing with the pain naturally. I found sheila kitzsinger really inspiring - she explains the whole process and how to cope. I basically swung my hips and 'ooohed' and breathed through the second labour. The mw didn't believe I was in labour (which I was from the sunday evening until I gave birth on the tuesday) as I 'didn't make a fuss' She was shocked to discover I was 10cms as she was only checking to see if I was suitable to start the induction process. I knew I was ready to start pushing but they had assumed I must just be experiencing braxton hicks and a back to back baby (a bit annoying that noone believed me but that was the only negative)

Anyway I suppose my point is, as a previous poster said, knowledge is power! expect pain and have a plan! Believe you can do it! Noone can know if it will be straightforward or not but I think it is definitely a good thing to approach it with a positive outlook!

Good luck!

Stottiecake I think it is interesting that people have perfect birth experiences for different reasons. My first 'natural' birth was horrific so I opted for max technology second time round and had an epidural when the contractions could be barely felt. I had a totally calm, painfree, birth in an upright position - I did not feel a whisper and was the best birth experience I could ever imagine. Pain is not necessarily part of birth.

tinytinyclanger,"But if what you're asking for is for everyone - medical professionals included, to focus only on the positive then that would be incredibly irresponsible IMO - giving people massively false expectations. I'm afraid it comes across as very naive - a comment which would have annoyed me pre-birth, but from the other side that's how I see it now."

I am absolutely not asking for the medical profession to focus only on the positive! I have stated right from the start that I am talking about balance. I believe that knowledge about every aspect of childbirth is power. Everywhere you turn the focus on pain and suffering in childbirth is sold to women, and that this is heralded as the only realistic expectation of how labour will go. That is equally irresponsible.
There is nothing naive about my stance. I have stated over and over again that I have a completely open mind in regards to how my birth may or may not go. It absolutely stands to reason that instilling fear in women is completely unhelpful and will contribute towards increasing tension and pain. And in my view, instilling fear seems to be the only game in town. There is no real balance. The "horror" of childbirth is so entrenched and ingrained within our society that the "excruciating pain that every woman will face in labour" is accepted and even joked about routinely. If childbirth was dealt with in a much more balanced, and yes, positive way, then far fewer women would be subjected to 9/10 months of crippling fear. And I do think that there are A LOT of women who feel that fear. There is clearly a "spectrum of fear", from the slightly nervous to completely phobic. I am not saying that fear can be eradicated, but it could definitely be reduced by selling a more realistic and balanced view.

I agree completely that childbirth is not portrayed well in the media, it's very unrealistic, but usually IMO it's a sanitised version that annoys me. The baby comes out looking all clean and about 2 months old!

I absolutely don't think we're celebrated or given the respect we deserve in the media for going through birth (wonderfully pain free or otherwise).

stottiecake's post is interesting to me. I will look up sheila kitzsinger for next time. I would rather my antenatal classes had dealt with the possibility of pain and how to deal with it, alongside the hippy stuff that so appealed to me!

I'm not going to labour the point any more (no pun intended!). Suffice to say I used to agree with you 100%, before actually having a child.

Sorry I am going to say one more thing, that last line seems ominous, and that's not the feeling I intended to get across!

FWIW I wish everyone was made aware of methods such hypnobirthing as standard, it's a great method, and especially as it's so empowering.

We are moving from a recent past where women weren't really allowed to have a say in birth. My mother was induced on a Tuesday, as that's when the consultant did babies as he played golf later in the week Thank goodness we've moved on from that! However not as far as we need to - a friend of mine has managed to have 3 kids without anyone ever suggesting to her that she might try a position other than her back!

Yes it would be lovely if more home births were shown on TV. And certainly more active labours, it would be great for awareness of active labour to be something the general population were aware of as "normal".

And having had three (nearly 4) children, including 2 very different types of birth I agree with you 100% chineapple

Pestopenguin, that is nice to hear from someone who has given birth so often. I agree with Chineapplepunk that what is needed is a balance of information available for pregnant women. I fully accept that the imminent birth of my baby may involve significant intervention, and while I've found elements of my hypnobirthing classes valuable, I remain healthily sceptical about some of its claims, and will be interested in testing them when I'm in labour. I'm not going to assume I need intervention in advance, but neither am I going to feel remotely apologetic/guilty if I do (and I think it's appalling the guilt-tripping that seems to be laid on women who've had highly-medicalised births). I'm not a naive person, and I'm not approaching birth naively. All I want is not to feel pre-empted by two mutually exclusive approaches to labour and birth.