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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

do fathers have to be present at the birth?

118 replies

CarolinaMoon · 22/01/2006 14:46

I was intrigued by a comment about this from a trainee MW on another thread.

My dp freely admits he found my labour very stressful - probably more than I did, if only because I was asleep with an epidural for the last few hours, while he was sitting listening to ds's heartbeat on the monitor. He could hear ds's heart rate slowing down and see the MWs exchanging looks with each other, all of which I was oblivious to, and of course there was nothing he could do about it.

What do you reckon?

OP posts:
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Enid · 23/01/2006 14:17

god pupuce I so wish you doula'd in Dorset

Meanoldmummy · 23/01/2006 14:19

Ha ha....moondog...yodel...howling at the moon...there's a laugh in there somewhere!!!

Seriously though - that's exactly how I felt - lucky to have got away with a baby and no dead midwives, never mind all this guff about swimming through the contractions like a sodding dolphin.

moondog · 23/01/2006 14:43

I can't believe anyone does it without drugs.
Find that dead impressive!

pupuce · 23/01/2006 14:45

Enid- come and move in with your SIL at 38 weeks
When are you due?

pupuce · 23/01/2006 14:45

Hello Moondog
Many of my 1st time mums do... I say with great pride

pupuce · 23/01/2006 14:47

Meanoldmummy... read Chilbirth without fear.... very interesting

Dinosaur · 23/01/2006 14:49

Pupuce I've had three babies now, vaginally, two of them without drugs, and I still feel terrified by childbirth. In fact I'm far more terrified now than I was when I was still childfree and in blissful ignorance!

moondog · 23/01/2006 14:49

Hi Pupuce.
Well,with your calming influence,I can well believe it.

Meanoldmummy · 23/01/2006 14:54

I DID have my second son without drugs. Even after the horrific debacle of my first delivery. I'll try anything once. I found soothing music, lavender oil and a less frenetic atmosphere quite helpful, to a degree. Mind you , that was only a 15 hour labour. However the shoulder dystocia, third degree tear and post-partum haemorrhage put something of a dampener on things - I did end up wishing I had opted for some pain relief.

motherinferior · 23/01/2006 15:40

Well, if we're culturally brainwashed into thinking childbirth is painful that goes, I think, for pretty well every culture so perhaps there's a slight basis in, er, women's experiences.

pupuce · 23/01/2006 15:57

There are cultures where they do nott find childbirth painful and there are women in this culture who don't find it either! (granted they are a minority... and I too found it painful!)

Meanoldmummy · 23/01/2006 16:16

Pupuce - are you a midwife? I know this is a bit cheeky but I would be really grateful if you would read my long post on my thread "Still not over terrible birth experience" in Chat section. You sound like a much gentler and kinder person than the midwives I met. I'd appreciate your view on what happened to me. I won't hijack again

As you were folks

Blandmum · 23/01/2006 16:30

Hmm, there are also cultures where pain in childbirth is a sign that the mother has been unfaithful to the father....there may be stong incentives to deny the pain, and thus avoid divorce or worse.

pupuce · 23/01/2006 17:15

Meanoldmummy - no i'm a doula but I attend many births (am on call for one at the moment).
Will read later (or tomorrow AM) as I am about to have tea with kids than governor meeting..... so no idea if I'll be able to tonight... but I will

What about women in rice fields.... they just get on with it.
For those of you generally interested in this I would suggest reading Chilbirth WIthout Fear, a book written in 1942 and recently re-published. (sorry to hijack )

Here is a review published on AIMS.ORG.UK

Childbirth Without Fear: The principles and practice of natural childbirth. by Grantly Dick-Read; reviewed by Elizabeth Cockerell
Childbirth Without Fear: The principles and practice of natural childbirth. by Grantly Dick-Read
Pinter & Martin, published 6 September 2004, £8.99

Reviewed by Elizabeth Cockerell

Grantly Dick-Read (1899-1959) was the first childbirth teacher in Britain, whose work developed into modern childbirth education, inspired the National Childbirth Trust and the childbirth movement. Childbirth Without Fear - the progenitor of all those books for pregnant women - was Dick-Read's principle work, first published in 1942 and now republished.

Childbirth Without Fear is charged with Dick-Read's intensive direct communication with patients and with his medical colleagues, although it was unevenly received. The Fear-Tension-Pain Syndrome as the explanation for pain in childbirth (a big subject up to the 1940s), Dick-Read's central message, was passed on to NCT teachers. Tense woman: tense cervix seem (to this reader) a big claim, though refocused by a recent Woman's Hour item on current research (in 2004) into Lactic Acid and progress of 2nd stage.

The obstetrician Michel Odent (famous since his work at Pithiviers) provides the preface for the book and writes that: "modern physiologists can confirm and interpret his [G D-R's] findings. They are now in a position to explain how adrenaline (an emergency hormone released in particular when there is a possible danger) and oxytocin (the hormone necessary to produce uterine contractions) are antagonistic." Precisely the burden of the research at The Liverpool Women's Hospital research reported on Woman's Hour. Compare this with Active Management of Labour devised by in 1965 by Kieren O'Driscoll which has since dominated the whole of obstetrics and maternity care, and for which we still await the evidential basis.

Grantly Dick-Read's clinical practice during the interwar era was years ahead, with elements that took decades to develop elsewhere, at the cost of great struggle by women. Antenatal care, antenatal teaching, partners at labour, emotional care of women, importance of diet, physiogical 3rd stage, rooming in, breastfeeding and breastfeeding on demand had yet to be even discussed. Dick-Read also disliked the indiscriminate use of analgesia and anaesthetic during the interwar years, at the end of which, spinal anaesthesia arrived.

"It is my custom to lift up the crying child, even before the cord is cut, so that the mother may 'see with her own eyes', the reality of her dreams. I have been told that no woman should see her baby until it has been bathed and dressed. My patients, however, are the first to grasp the small fingers and touch gingerly the soft skin of the infant's cheek. They are the first to marvel at the miracle of their own performance." Compare this with everywhere else until very recently.

Dick-Read watched with much misgiving the arrival of episiotomy [first common in America in the 1920s as a way of transforming childbirth into a surgical event]. 'Being good at stitching' was regarded as an achievement in obstetrics. By the time of his death, episiotomy had become a standard feature of childbirth, and suturing was carried out by medical students!

In this book, Grantly Dick-Read was scathing about obstetricians and midwives - the maternity services. The medical profession ignored his work. It is not surprising that Dick-Read attracted a crowd of admirers (i.e. women) who were determined to carry forward his work. Odent notes Dick-Read's scientific eye. Anthropology, psychology, medical statistics, and, always, motherhood interested Grant-Read. He was an observer who learned from his first years working at Whitechapel till the 1950s.

Grantly Dick-Read spoke, of course, for his generation. After a golden period at Cambridge, he served with the R.A.M.C. at Gallipoli, was wounded, and served across the western front. Throughout his professional life, Dick-Read insisted that women in labour be not left alone: " 'I have never known before how frightful loneliness can be'", Dick-Read said at the time. "Perhaps this is the reason why I shudder when I pass the door of those wards where women lie alone enduring the first stage of labour. They are not educated to their job, they are told to 'get on with it'. From time to time, a nurse looks in... No greater curse can fall upon a young woman whose first labour has commenced, than the crime of enforced loneliness." Compare this with modern obstetrics where the main advantage of Electronic Fetal Monitoring has been that the woman can be left unattended.

Like Odent later, Grantly Dick-Read understood that for women, childbirth is a private and domestic matter. The lack of privacy in maternity care has been a constant dread of women across the 20th century; to which obstetricians, GPs and, unfortunately, many midwives have been largely oblivious. The politics of childbirth seems a modern notion, but Dick-Read saw childbirth as of political interest "especially since women have the vote now". From early days at Whitechapel, Dick-Read looked for the woman to have the active, leading role, not a passive role.

This book is a look back to the era of Dr Finlay's Casebook and private practice in nursing homes, when Dick-Read had been Resident Accouccheur at Whitechapel. Childbirth Without Fear is a historical item now, though possibly not altogether superceded. It reads, to this eye, surprisingly fresh and vigorous. Dr Grantly Dick-Read handed on the torch, but the relay is not over.

For further reading, Look up Grantly Dick-Read on an Internet search engine. There's a good paper by Sheila Kitzinger (who reaches back to that generation) called The Politics of Birth.

mrsdarcy · 23/01/2006 18:40

Pupuce, the wonderful midwife who looked after me in my last pregnancy (but sadly couldn't deliver DD as she only does home deliveries) read this book when she was training, at a time when every other midwife/doctor would gather round the poor labouring mother and shout "puuuuuush puuuuuuuuuush" . She said that her patients were so much more relaxed, and had much better deliveries, when she spoke to them quietly and kept the lights dimmed.

If I have any more I would have a home delivery just so I could have her deliver my baby .

snafu · 23/01/2006 18:50

Odent

and here

and some more

Interesting ideas...

(And can I just make the point that not all mws went to MoM's (lack of) charm school )

pupuce · 23/01/2006 18:56

Snafu ...I know all that - what i meant was why do you think : "perhaps unsurprisingly he's not too much in favour of it"

pupuce · 23/01/2006 18:58

MrsDarcy - this is what most doulas do (or should do)... speak quitely, dim lights, keep mothers feeling safe. It does indeed give great results.

snafu · 23/01/2006 19:00

Sorry pupuce, I don't understand what you're getting at? If you mean the 'perhaps unsurprisingly' I was just being a bit flippant - writing with a toddler clinging to my leg, iirc!

pupuce · 23/01/2006 19:02

I just wondered if there was a reason you felt this way... some on this board have said that he said this because he wanted to be the only male in the labour room... so I wondered if this is why you said that
As it happens I know several women who had him at their birth and I knw he only appears when needed (i.e. the birth itself).

snafu · 23/01/2006 19:09

Nooo, not at all! (Well, I don't know, maybe he does want to be the only man there, but that's not what I was getting at ) Actually, I'd be fascinated to watch him at a birth...

I guess I meant more that his ideas frequently challenge the mainstream, men in the delivery room is now the mainstream, so 'perhaps unsurprisingly' he has an interesting alternative position to what we now consider the orthodox?

Hopefully will return to this later - ds's bath calls!

Aloha · 23/01/2006 19:09

MOM - nothing in your post surprises me. All my midwives were Nurse Ratcheds too. I still have fantasies where they die slowly and painfully of cancer.

pupuce · 23/01/2006 19:13

I can tell you what he does (acording to the mums who had him).... nothing, he sleeps on sofa (if at night) or dinks a coffee with the dad in another room, whilst doula stays with mum... doula calls when baby is coming... he makes sure all is OK... the less he does the happier he feels I suspect !!!!

nooka · 23/01/2006 21:42

Well if I ever had another child I would like a doula there - or a midwife who actually cared (and I know they are out there because I have met several)! But at the end of the day, for me if I had been giving birth in a paddy field both ds and I would be dead.

beetlejuice73 · 23/01/2006 22:08

I can highly recommend my mum as a birth partner, if anyone's interested.
DP didn't want to be there and I didn't want him to see me in that state (shallow, I know!) In any case, my mother's done it 3 times with relative ease, whereas my DP's never done it (and would certainly not have done it with ease). So I opted for the expert and she was superb. Knew when to offer water, when to encourage, when to shut up. In the end it was a real team effort between me, mother and mw.
DP dropped me off at the hospital, went round the corner to a mate's house and was back in the delivery room holding his daughter 10 minutes after she arrived.