Should we have lied to newly preggy friend about what birth was like? Is it wrong to join the conspiracy?

[Ushy]

Think I have an ethical dilemma

Five of us went for an evening out with newly preggy friend. When it came to discussion of what the birth was like the ONLY one of us who had had an uncomplicated birth went on and on about how wonderful it was and what an overwhelmingly life changing experience and how she should have the baby at home and resist all the interventions etc etc....
The rest of us said nothing or muttered 'it was ok' because we did not want to scare her. We had all had horrific experiences of childbirth and the three of us that have had elective caesareans have all said, between ourselves, it was far better than the 'intervention free' birth.

We chatted about it afterwards. Do we conspire to lie? I now actually feel quite bad because I remember - after my first birth -thinking why didn't someone tell me how awful 'natural' birth could be? I would have insisted on an early epidural and got DH to drag the doctor in to do a caesarean much earlier.

Somehow I feel I have been seduced into a conspiracy and I feel incredibly bad about it. She's a good friend, asked us a straight question and we lied.

Anyone else had this dilemma?

No-one told me how horrific childbirth could be - I knew it wasn't painless obviously but heard lots of "well if it was that bad, no woman would ever have a second" etc. etc. etc. Also the classic "it's not as bad as they make it look on TV" (no, it's worse actually). However, even I had been told I'm really not sure it would have helped at all. It is an indescribable experience IMO & unique in every case. It is also true that you can forget the intensity of the pain & the general agony of the experience over the years - so your mum or friends with older DCs may have rosier memories than a friend who delivered last month! I had DC3 9 days ago - even though I'd done it twice before the pain still came as a shock!

Such a tricky one this, I really believe the more info you have the better - so I would advise her to talk to as many people as possible and read as much as she can. It's such a shame your group of friends mostly had such bad experiences - in my nct group of 9, 3 had emergency cs for failure to progress, 4 had hospital births (2 inductions) and 2 had homebirths. All the hospital births sounded horrific, the homebirthers (including myself) thought it was not too bad. I would feel a bit guilty that the only one of you to have had a not too bad experience might have given a false impression as I know birth can be very traumatic for some and you dont know what you'll get til you get it. Equally you dont want to freak her out because she may not have a horrific birth, it's not a given. Before I got pg I was thinking elective cs all the way. But the longer I was pg, and the more I read and thought, I changed my mind and ended up at home using hypnobirthing.

I agree mona. Was your home birth a water birth? I want a home birth this time so I am guarnteed a water birth like last time. I cant think of anything more awful than being stuck in the bed on your back in pain. I did it for about 5 minutes whilst they were filling the water pool and it was the worst 5 minutes after that hours just flew by in the pool.

I think I would tell her that everyone's experience of birth is different and that it's best to keep an open mind and be prepared for the good, the bad and everything in between.

I had lots of people tell me horror stories and "whatever you do, have an epidural" and also people who told me it could be calm & tranquil & beautiful. For me, the truth was somewhere in between. It was long, hard work, tiring and painful but not nearly as bad as some people's experiences.

I don't think it's helpful to be petrified as you go into labour but equally I know people who felt confused/guilty when their birth experiences were more traumatic than they'd expected.

Which is why I think it's important to say (if anything) that there's a wide range of experiences and you can't know beforehand what yours will be like, so take everything one step at a time and make the choices that are right for you as you go along.

hi jelly - it was not a water birth, though I am planning one this time (due next week). I did go in my bath the first time though so I know water is the thing for me. Definitely recommend a hb, so nice to be in charge (most of the time).

If asked, I would say that I had an unusually shit time and if you want to hear about it I will tell you. However of all of the people I know well enough to hear about their births, I had the worst recovery, so don't assume that everyone has as bad a time.

I do wish that I heard a little more about the reality of birth. I doubt that my exact experience would have come up, but I blocked everything out beforehand with the thought "It's a day, or two, and then it's done, so it isn't worth worrying too much about". It wasn't a day or two, I couldn't sit properly for 3 months and had nerve damage and couldn't move my leg normally for about 6 weeks. I definitely fall into the "wish I had an ELCS" and would have happily paid for it privately, but that didn't occur to me.

You also have to remember that you end up with clusters of poor outcomes just by chance. Of my NCT group we had 5 forceps, 1 EMCS and one normal delivery. That doesn't match the stats at our local hospital at all. However I didn't really notice beforehand that the stats for things like forceps and ventouse don't look too bad until you realise that they will mostly be for first time mothers (this is a bit of a guess on my part), so a 20% rate suddenly becomes about 40% when you factor out people on their 2nd and subsequent children.

Very sensible post, breatheslowly.

This is a very emotive topic. I think recognising that there is a range of experience in terms of birth is useful. I think people should feel free to talk about their experience if they acknowledge that they are talking about theirs, and no one else's. I hate the idea that voices are stifled, and people sweep their experience under the carpet because someone doesn't find it palatable. It does damage to the people who can't speak as well as those that don't get the chance to hear.

At the same time, I think it's very sensible and humane to recognise that a mother to be might be very anxious about birth, and to be sensitive to that.

Is it possible to say 'this was my experience, mine alone, and this is how I feel about it' - and then leave the other person to gather more stories/do more research/get a bigger picture?

I had an ELCS for my 1st birth, for mental health reasons. It was great, and I had a very good recovery. I very often feel like I 'can't' say that - that it's 'not allowed'. I don't volunteer the info, but if asked directly, I tell my story.

I was that anxious mother-to-be once (a VERY anxious mother-to- be), and I wouldn't have thanked anyone for lying to me. Because that's what we're talking about.

And I agree with other posters that bland rosy pics of BF-ing don't help (as someone who is very pro-BF, and whose year-plus DS has never had any milk but BF).

i don't think it's helpful to tell people that it's absolutely awful and that they can't possibly manage it themselves without really intensive intervention.

it's like telling people they 'can't' breastfeed or that it's 'too hard'..

people on MN seem to often say 'i wish i'd known how hard it is' (both birth and bf) but in my real life experience most people are far TOO negative about both things and say that both are unimagineably painful and awful...

fluffles you said "don't think it's helpful to tell people that it's absolutely awful and that they can't possibly manage it themselves without really intensive intervention. "

I totally agree with you if she had asked about the generalities of birth but the problem was she was asking US what our experience of childbirth was and all four of us felt compelled to lie to avoid scaring her.

As breatheslowly rightly says that doesn't help, does it?

I had heard a lot of horror stories when I was pregnant. Luckily, I had some work acquatinances who told me purely useful stuff that really helped me:
Labour is finite. It will not last forever. When you have a labour pain think of it as one less (before it's all over), than one more to get through.
If you feel you are going to poo yourself, the baby is almost out (I remember getting to this stage and being pleasantly surprised that the Alanis Morrisette CD was still sheathed).
Ask about all pain relief available.
Have a plan, but be prepared to deviate for pain alleviation/or on medical advice.
The desired result is healthy baby and healthy mum. Get there however you can and be happy when you arrive at this destination.

Tell her the truth: that you don't need to have a straightforward or painless birth to have a positive experience.

That you can have complications and experience extreme pain in labour AND STILL COME OUT FEELING HAPPY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY HEALTHY AND STRONG

Also tell her that if she really wants a natural birth without interventions it's probably a good idea for her to plan a homebirth and/or get an independent midwife.

Also good to plan a homebirth if she wants to maximise her chances of having a happy and satisfying experience.

Personally - if it was my friend I'd be strongly discouraging her from going anywhere near the labour ward unless she was high risk, or unless she wanted an epidural from the get go.

But yes - she needs to know labour is hard.

hi there, i think you were trying to do a really nice thing for your friend by not telling her how excruciatingly painful it can be, i think your intentions were really good but in my opinion i think she should of been told the truth, before dd i was aware labour was going to hurt, everyone told me it was painful but if millions of women can do it then why couldnt i? so i had a very strict drug free birthplan... however i had a very long, traumatizing labour that i had nightmares for months after. I really really wish someone had told me some horror stories so i knew exactly what i was getting myself into so it wasnt such a shock when it actually happened.. 3years later and 23weeks preg i am shit scared about labour this time around, but i know what im in for and feel much better prepared for it... some even say thats why women have better 2nd labours is because they no what they are in for and are prepared for the worst.. thats just my opinion and im sure u will do the right thing by your friend either way :)

If asked I usually say. "Nothing could prepare me what my labour was like but I would do it all again. There is no right or wrong way to labour and if you want drugs have them!"

To their partners I usually say "If she asks you to do something, dont question it, just do it"

I think if they ask then its only fair to tell them "the truth". I really wish I'd been more prepared not only about how difficult labour was but also about how hard the first couple of weeks with a newborn are. There is a difference between telling it as a horror story and helping someone to be realistic about whats coming. Having said that, I must admit I do now feel bad about letting all my pregnant/childless friends who visited me a bit too soon after the event know exactly what it was like accompanied by "I'm not doing again, I don't recommend it". I have since apologised profusely and have happily told them that 12 weeks on I would do it again. And I am over the moon to know I honestly mean it.

Slightly off topic for this thread, but it sounds like most horrendous experiences are about extreme pain. So why is there such a strong culture of avoiding pain relief? Everyone criticizes Americans for having epidurals, but if that makes for positive experiences, then why not?

Sorry - first timer here. I am just surprised, because I understand traumatic when it comes to unwanted intervention such as forceps and similar, baby being failing to progress... But traumatic because of lack of pain relief. Why? Perhaps you could just tell your friend to have an epidural?

9DonkeysAndBoy You are absolutely right - pain was the factor for my friends and myself although one of us had a shoulder dystocia baby (added to the agony!) and she said she felt like a slab of meat as they crushed her legs apart and pushed them up to her chin to get the baby out. So degradation was a bit of it.

The problem on the NHS is that you can ask for an epidural but whether you get it or not in some hospitals is another matter. (Actually, it seems you're more likely to get one if you scream you don't want one from reading other posts!) What's more, they sometimes make you wait ages and epidurals are more likely to fail if they are administered late. The 'cascade of intervention' is touted as the reason but it is complete rubbish because the States have lower instrumental deliveries than we have and, as you say, a generally routine epidural policy. Basically, giving women pain relief costs more and you need a midwife with you all the time. In the NHS it's money.

We've discussed it since and wonder whether we ought to be just saying, look, you've got the money don't use the NHS. There are brilliant NHS hospitals but there are also lousy ones with barbaric care and it is such an important life event you don't want to take chances.

Thanks , MNers,by the way for all your thoughtful suggestions.

Its a hard dilemma, but also everything birth is different. My three have ranged wildly.

The advice I give is - it is really really painful and you don't know how you are going to react to that pain - you may be fine - you may not. There are a million different ways to have a baby but these all aren't represented in books. Its all down to how you and your body adapt, how big the baby is etc. Don't stress to much about what you want and allow yourself to go with the flow.

I talk about how amazing I felt when I saw baby, felt its warm skin etc. I do try and skirt around details. It also depends on who you're telling - some people are very sensitive and scared in their pregnancy, some don't want to be told anything and some are really open to hearing stories.

Yes, Ushy, like I said, when it comes to complications, I can totally understand the traumatic birth. If nothing else, the fear whether everything will be ok, etc. So I can see how your friend with shoulder dystocia baby would have a less than ideal birth, and I understand the degradation bit.

I think I agree on your points about 'cascade of intervention' as all my friends who had births in other countries (ranging from Israel to America to Eastern Europe) all had routine epidurals and VERY quick first births, no intervention. But I did look up the statistics, and in the UK apparently 7% of all deliveries are instrumental, a number that goes up to 14% if they use an epidural. So there is some truth to that.

As for advice to your friend - well, that's what I went for. Like I said I have not been through it yet - but I hope that epidurals would come easier when private, as well as emergency CS if one is needed.

I think the trouble overall is that everyone would like to be forewarned about whatever-it-is-that-eventually-turns-out-to-be-an-issue-for-them but no one wants to hear horror stories about something-that-in-the-end-doesn't-happen. But without benefit of crystal ball you can't know which is which.

I think probably rather than saying just "it was OK" you could have said something like "It wasn't great, to be honest, and I found the pain hard to cope with. But I'm not going to go into details because I don't think that would help you and the one thing you can guarantee is that the details of your birthday will be different. "

(Personal background: one EMCS after long labour (and over an hour spent trying to get the epidural in) followed by two quick and easy VBACs on TENS and gas & air; it was really down to the luck of the draw and the baby's position each time)

When I was pregnant with my 1st child I was told horrendous stories from friends/colleagues/strangers in the street.

In my final few weeks I was utterly petrified. My midwife had a right time with me. I couldn't even read articles on childbirth. I couldn't make a birth plan. I couldn't think about it.

I had a relatively easy and very quick birth with my first. And I never knew giving birth could be like that. I was shocked for days after and almost felt this stupid thing of not being a 'proper' mother. Just cos I'd not spent days in agony earning my baby. Ridiculous. I blame hormones.

When I am asked I say it's different for everyone, be open minded and set in stone on what sort of birth you want. And here's hoping you'll have short easy birth cos they do happen.

Pain relief used in labour has risks and side effects, therefore it cannot be true that there is no rationale or reward for going without. I chose to not have it in two of my three labours and felt amply 'rewarded' for this choice - physically, spiritually and emotionally.

Labour is (usually) fucking agonising but the women who come out happiest tend to be those who choose to labour in environments where epidurals are not available. Go figure! Pain is not the be all and end all when it comes to childbirth. A healthy baby, being listened to, and good care are.

This is a tricky one. I was talking to a pregnant friend a few weeks ago and she had pretty unrealistic ideas, such as she was going to send DH to the canteen with his iphone while she was in labour, and really it couldn't be that bad, and people make such a fuss, and how her life wasn't going to change and all us parents were just exaggerating about how much your life changes after having a baby.

I just said, take the drugs if you feel you need them, then found her husband and said "your life will change and at least one of you needs to consider that." They don't make a "birthplan iphone app" though so I do wonder what on earth will happen when they actually get to the delivery room.

I do think that it is good to not send the gypsy's warning but also for people to know that things could possibly go wrong and to be prepared. I thought I wouldn't have drugs...wrong! Ended up with epidural and assisted delivery. Luckily DH had read up on the whole lot and stood over the doctors checking what was happening and reassuring me. That really helped.