Anyone else 'tricked' out of epidural?

[liznay]

I went over my birth notes today at the 'Birth Reflections' service at my local hospital. (In order to get closure and prepare for No 2!)
To cut a long story short, My previous labour was 27 hours from start to finish although I was only admitted for the last 7 hours.

I asked for an epidural no less than 6 times during this period and was given the excuse that I needed to be 4 cm before I could get one.
Suprise, Suprise, no one would examine me to check how dilated I was and so then it became 'too late' to give me once I had reached 10 cm.
Despite Nice guidelines saying that no woman should be refused an epidural (even in the latent first stage!) apparently the hospital have their own policy.
I am SO ANGRY about this and feel that I was ignored and treated like a small child. Incidentally, the hospital are unapologetic about this and refused to say sorry about the care I received. The most that they would conceed was that they had 'somehow failed me'.
Why is this still happening to us in the 21st century? Anyone else had a similar experience? What can we do about it, and how can we prevent it happening for subsequent births? It's time that midwives stopped deciding for us how much pain relief we need and consult with us regarding how to make our births more comfortable. Not saying that all midwives are like this, but mine was a particular dragon....
I don't want this to turn into a debate on the pro's/cons of epidurals as this has been done to death elsewhere...

There's a similar list of experiences on the Gas & Air thread. All I wanted was something better than paracetamol after my section, and it took forever. I also had to do the hoist thing for my baby as I was sick of waiting for someone to bother to come and help me lift him out of his cot.

Compare that to a minor op I had a couple of months later, the nurses were queueing up to give me pain relief and when I said I didn't need anything, looked at me like I was insane.

Interesting how when any discussion talks about the inadequacies of our health care system, someone always comes on to post about how they did it all drug free and are really proud. Good for you Elbow, I just wish that everyone could feel as elated as you quite cleary do about your births.

Maybe we should all just put up and shut up, after all women have been having children since time began - we should just accept that this is our lot! Trouble is, it's this attitude that stops reform and if everyone felt like this, we'd still be tied to the kitchen sinks without the right to vote.

petsville, I'm sorry for your loss,

Petsville I'm so sorry for your loss I had an intra-uterine death at 17 weeks and was induced. I was offered an epidural as soon as my contractions started - I declined, but got a morphine pump instead. To offer you nothing but paracetamol is inhumane.

I'm glad that not everyone gets such rotten care - very sorry for your loss too, Phlebas.

I'm really tired of the "women have been giving birth for millenia" argument. Well yes, they have. And people have been having broken limbs, pancreatitis, tooth extractions and all sorts of other painful experiences for just as long. Funnily enough, no-one tells you when you have your wisdom teeth out that you ought to do it "naturally" and that if you'd had it done pre-anaesthaesia you would just have had to cope.

Like Panzee, I've been offered all sorts of pain relief after a minor op, where I really didn't need anything much. I find the difference in attitude wherever giving birth is involved to be extraordinary. I honestly can't see any explanation except misogyny - that these things only affect women, so there's no need to try to make them better.

Sorry, should have been "millennia" - typing with DS on my lap!

I think we ought to answer Liznay's question about what should we do about this? We drone on about how the Taleban treat women - the NHS is not much better when it comes to providing pain relief for women in labour.

So sorry to hear about your loss and horrendous experience Petsville, and for your loss too Phlebas.

I don't know, in terms of 'campaigning for change' for me there are three main issues:

1. The NHS's attitude to caring for women who are in early stages of labour, ie

• Treating them quite literally as whinging inconveniences who must be kept out of everyone?s way until they reach the magic 5cm (or whatever is deemed to be an 'acceptable' stage to start looking after them). And no, sending women who are frightened and in pain away to have a bath without even examining them does not constitute 'looking after'.

• Failing to address women's pain and anxiety early on means they go into the birthing process full of pain and anxiety. Which must surely make for more difficult patients and worse outcomes anyway? So who's the winner here )

1. Lack of realistic information beforehand - many first timers find their reality shockingly different from those nice ante-natal hospital tours you get, where you meet the anaesthetists who you will be lucky to lay eyes on ever again...

1. Lack of space/resources for labouring women, lack of midwives, lack of anaesthetists.. etc etc. Yes, we all know about that one and even the govt doesn't seem to dispute it.

But mostly it's about a change of ATTITUDE and treating pregnant women and their choices with respect.

Whooohee!! Misty Valley. I'll be the first to sign up to your campaign - you've SO right!!!:)

Finally something we can (kind of) agree on. It's not that as midwives we don't get the training to enable women to manage a drug-free labour but 99 times out of a 100 we aren't able to work in this way.

but is it really that rare? or are we just told that it is/should be? in my case I had the best possible facilities - a spanking new mw led unit, birthing pool, balls, ropes, stools, 3 fantastic mws, 1 amazing doula and my brilliant dh. we had been practicing hypnobirthing techniques and i was completely up for it. massively prepared. when it came to it, all useless. maybe I was unlucky. i thnk i was. but reading threads on mumsnet leads me to believe that although it may be unlucky, it may not be that rare.

Starlight and Dr McDreamy, you both obviously work in maternity services.
It is not true that the less pain relief a woman has the better it is for her and her baby. Yes, IF you are lucky and have a very quick, painless, straightforward birth and don't need pain relief obviously you will have a good outcome - that is self evident. And yes, if you have a nice midwife it makes labour pain less frightening and easier to bear but a normal labour can be unendurable agony simply because of physiological reasons and complicated labour can be psychologically damaging in the long term.

The WORST outcomes are from women who don't get the pain relief they need- linked to depression and PTSD, fear of ever getting pregnant again, relationship breakdown.

Even in the best circumstances, with the most supportive midwife, labour pain can still be severe enough to cause psychological damage. Nothing will change until health care professionals can get their head round this and provide women with effective pain relief when they ask for it.

Midwives are not analgesics. The best most supportive midwives respect women and provide pain relief when the woman asks for it.

I don't believe it's that rare. I was one of the lucky ones: I never felt that the pain was unbearable, that I was about to lose control, that I wanted to die - any of the things that other women have said on this thread. It really, really hurt, but I could cope. But I had a near-textbook labour and delivery - DS was in exactly the right position, labour progressed without stalling, I was calm and relaxed once I was in the birthing pool and was supported by a midwife who really knew what she was doing and listened to what I was saying. Even so, I had a long second stage and I was beginning to think I just couldn't do it by the time DS emerged. If there'd been any complications, or if I hadn't had that one-to-one care (which loads of women don't), I'm not at all convinced I could have managed without serious pain relief. In my NCT group, I was the only one who didn't need a Caesarean or an assisted delivery - we're all quite old, which may be relevant - and consequently the only one who didn't ask for an epidural.

Sorry, Starlight, I read your comment about the less pain relief a woman has the better it is for her an the baby and I thought you were a midwife!

Humble apologies and I do agree totally about the barbaric mess we are in over this.

Isn't part of the problem, though, that women are too hard on themselves? Why is 'drug free labour' such a competition? Each to their own and people should be free to do what they want but there is a bit of one upmanship about this, isn't there?

Think there should be a counter revolution - what about some T-shirts with 'Epidural and proud of it' or 'Epidurals rock'. :)

I donate to the nct so they can campaign for improvements to maternity services. they might seem all lentil weavery but are also a political campaigning body. not sure if there are others as well? maternity services are chronically underfunded and no politician could give a toss unless they start getting letters and petitions at the very least. up until the 60's it was routine to have episiotomies and enemas - regardless of medical need, up until the 80s women could be forced to have c sections or else be 'sectioned' as being mad for refusing. Campaigns change things.

Mercibucket - Aren't the NCT a bit anti towards epidurals though because they see them as 'interventioins'? There's a lot on MN about their attitudes to pain relief. Do you think they would really be 'onside' about this?

I know a lot of people think it is all 'breathing exercises and yoga poses' with the nct but they are at heart a political campaigning organisation. this is the link to some of their current campaigns and there is a feedback form you can complete if you want them to campaign on other issues - might be as good a place as any to start. It's rebranded as the 'national' not 'natural' childbirth trust so challenge them on that!
www.nct.org.uk/active/network/nationalcampaigning/pregbirth
I can't honestly see them thinking every mother should be given epidurals as standard, no, but this is about funding (lack of), adequate staff (again, lack of), caring attitude to women in labour (once again, lack of) - all good campaigning issues. If women want epidurals and make an informed decision to ask for one, it's appalling that they are ignored. If nothing else, checking out the NCT links might give some ideas about a separate campaign and how to approach it.

You need to have a think about your objectives. Is it epidurals on demand for everyone no matter the circs, is it more staff so you can have that 1to1 care so perhaps the epidural isn't necessary. Good luck.

Yes, certainly my image of the NCT is one where people are pushed down the 'natural' route.

In practice it probably depends on the people holding individual classes, whose personal agendas and opinions will vary a bit.

It seems like a smooth and pain-relief-free birth is promoted as the holy grail of 'lifestyle' experiences. The fact that it might well not actually BE like that, especially with the NHS's lack of resources and attitude to labouring women, seems to be brushed under the carpet, not least by the NHS itself.

Hold the front pages. I reckon Starlight and I are in agreement.

"I suppose my objective would be that all woman requesting epidurals on demand get them, but that this would be a rare request because all women who can manage without are adequately supported to not NEED to ask."

I would agree with that.