Anyone else 'tricked' out of epidural?

[liznay]

I went over my birth notes today at the 'Birth Reflections' service at my local hospital. (In order to get closure and prepare for No 2!)
To cut a long story short, My previous labour was 27 hours from start to finish although I was only admitted for the last 7 hours.

I asked for an epidural no less than 6 times during this period and was given the excuse that I needed to be 4 cm before I could get one.
Suprise, Suprise, no one would examine me to check how dilated I was and so then it became 'too late' to give me once I had reached 10 cm.
Despite Nice guidelines saying that no woman should be refused an epidural (even in the latent first stage!) apparently the hospital have their own policy.
I am SO ANGRY about this and feel that I was ignored and treated like a small child. Incidentally, the hospital are unapologetic about this and refused to say sorry about the care I received. The most that they would conceed was that they had 'somehow failed me'.
Why is this still happening to us in the 21st century? Anyone else had a similar experience? What can we do about it, and how can we prevent it happening for subsequent births? It's time that midwives stopped deciding for us how much pain relief we need and consult with us regarding how to make our births more comfortable. Not saying that all midwives are like this, but mine was a particular dragon....
I don't want this to turn into a debate on the pro's/cons of epidurals as this has been done to death elsewhere...

You're missing the point.

For one, childbirth really doesn't HAVE to be painful.

For another, if it's going to be painful because the budget isn't there for effective analgesia, then it's not unreasonable for women not to be finding that out during labour. Often first labour, when you've really no idea how bad it's going to get.

I coped fine with my 2nd & 3rd labours. I knew it was likely to bloody hurt, & I'd probably just have to get on with it. I also knew I'd survived it once!

Totally different scenario from 'I'd like that epiduralyou promised I could have now please, I'm in a LOT of pain & I'm scared because I don't know how much harder it's going to get' & being told 'Ah...in a few hours. Maybe'.

Kaykay - replace the word 'childbirth' in your post with 'tooth extraction' and see how that sounds?

'So, when anaesthetist is with another lady and unable to administer an epidural, what do you think the midwife should do? I am genuinely interested in what your expectations would be.'

Tell me the truth, then! Stay with me. Tell me the truth and then stay with me. Don't lie to me and assume I'll believe it.

All I wanted is for someone to do that.

I wanted someone to tell me I could get off the bed and birth that 9.5lbs boy.

I wanted to know she'd stay with me.

But I knew she couldn't so that is why I wanted an epi.

I was on my own, fgs. Yep, I know it was my 3rd, but I was 100 miles from home and I thought I might die, or my baby, who could have.

Instead I got told how I should buck up because it was my 3rd.

Would I see my own daughter through such a thing? Like HELL.

'The real problem here is not midwives or epidurals, it is that pain is not part of life any more. Our lives are comfortable, sanitised, we don;t have to cope with stuff, we just take a pill or sue someone and it all feels better.'

Oh, okay, so is death. Let me go tell that to all who are going through that now whom I know.

Let me tell my pal on here who lost her baby at 37 weeks.

It's all life's big circle!

Get friggin' real.

My first and third births where the lowest points of my entire life.

I was patronised, I was lied to, I was left completely alone in pain and antagonised for it. The aftercare was a joke.

I have permanent psychological scars from it all.

I wouldn't wish this on all but my worst enemy.

As a result I will strongly encourage my two daughters, if they chose to have babies, to go private if I have to sell my saggy body.

I'd gladly do it if it meant they never know what I do.

Is anyone listening? Because no one was those two times I was begging for epi.

I knew something was wrong because I have been living in my own body far longer than any healthcare professional.

I know myself far longer, but still: belittled, fobbed off, had to make a fuss.

Don't care.

I'd get sacked for treating my clients the way I was treated.

'So, when anaesthetist is with another lady and unable to administer an epidural, what do you think the midwife should do? I am genuinely interested in what your expectations would be.'

Tell the bloody truth then, for starters.

Stop treating women like they're morons, even if they are teens, they have the measure of you, they are not idiots.

Don't swan off.

Treat women like people.

I have just read this posted by a midwife (vivalabeaver) upthread

"I was looking after 2 labourers last week, both of who were begging for epidurals and neither could have them as I couldn't give one to one care."

I mean how is this allowed. Two grown women who (presumably) were told in their antenatal care that they could have an epidural if they wanted one, were not in the event allowed to have one. That is utterly disgusting.

I think there is a load of shit spouted that 'the body is perfectly designed for childbirth'. Is it fuck.

Expat I am really sorry what you went through - it sounds like a fucking nightmare. Too damn right you are still angry. It sounds utterly aawful what you went through - and others on this thread. A bloody episiotomy on gas and air? It is absilutely fucking disgusting.

I am still fucking furious personally after being refused painkillers after an op this week, and some ghastly nurse having a row with me at 5 o clock in the morning whilst I was crying in pain.

If and when I have another baby (mind you I am having second thoughts after this week) I am going private, fuck it.

I am so proud of the welfare state and would cheer the the NHS to the rafters normally, but the service is primitive and third rate in so many cases.

Pain relief for labouring women should be on demand, and available for all.

Before DS's birth (in the US) we went to a refresher lamaze class in the hosp and at one of the classes the head of anesthesiology made an appearance and reassured everyone there that it was a woman's god-given right to have pain relief during labour and no-one should feel bad asking for it.

Fast forward to scheduled induction on a Monday morning had to argue with a stupid bitch nurse who pretended not to understand English to get her to numb the back of my hand before inserting a massive IV needle and starting up my pitocin drip, waited and waited for the anesthesiologist to come by and put in the epidural needle the window of opportunity was actually predictable since I was on pitocin -- and he never came.

They apparently had a huge number of walk-ins and they had booked the maximum number of inductions for first thing Monday morning, and some women had then required c-sections right at the predictable time when I would have been having my epidural (that I had a god given right to) if they had bothered to have enough anesthesiology staff on duty. DS was 9 lbs 4 ozs and had to be pulled out in the end with a vacuum thingy. The (Scottish) anesthesiologist arrived just as my doctor picked himself up off the floor where he had fallen in astonishment when DS was weighed (they had predicted he might be as big as 8.5 lbs..) and apologised profusely to me. He was the only doctor I have ever heard apologise in the US (it's frowned upon because of fear of lawsuits), and it wasn't even his fault.

I still hate that nurse. I had her again when DD2 was born two years later, to my horror, but I was mentally prepared for her that time, and DD2 arrived less than 45 minutes after arrival at the hospital anyway.

I had an episiotomy with DS, but had local anesthesia administered by my OB/GYN. No gas or air in the US or I would have been sucking it down. And the lazy bitch nurse left me alone for about 45 minutes at lunchtime contrary to all regulations I found out later; no-one on a pitocin drip is supposed to be unmonitored...

This was private care in a university hospital in the country that says it has the best healthcare in the world... Sorry to any Americans around, but it stunk. I had used the same hospital for an operation the year before - major abdominal surgery, and the difference in nursing care between post op and post natal defied description. I firmly believe it was because the post op section had men as patients too, not just women like the maternity wing.

four times

well, here's another horrible truth:

i can afford to go private and i did for my first two births and am for the 3rd in just 9 weeks now.

first time i was fobbed off so it was too late.

second time there wasn't an anaesthetist available.

so despite paying through my nose i still didn't get anywhere near adequate pain relief.

i paid for the obstetrician but was still subjected to the mw who refused to phone her for me and left me alone for hours at a time all the while lying through her teeth.

not all mw's are as awful as the one i encountered for birth no. 2 so i'm not knocking them all or the profession.

unless you're prepared to hire your own anaesthetist and all that they need you still get no guarantees.

unless you go to the portland and live in a hotel nearby for the last bit of your pregnancy. if you can afford it.

I actually used to work in a hospital - a small consultant led unit, not a MLU where there were no epidurals between midnight and 8:;00am. There wasn't an anaethetist to do them. I used to warn women at 11:00pm that if they thought there was any possibility they might want one to get it NOW.

Yes me. I was tricked out of an epi the third time. I'd had two quite straightfoward and reasonably quick births already, with just gas and air and TENS, but my stitches after DC2 were an awful experience and the local anaesthetic didn't work at all so I said all along that I wanted and epi for birth 3.

They kept ignoring me, patronising me, or changing the subject during the early stages when I asked for an epi, and when I started to beg for it they said 'Yes, yes, the anaesthetist is on his way, he'll be here in 20 minutes, etc, etc, and two hours later he still wasn't there and the baby was born. No stitches though thank God.

'I firmly believe it was because the post op section had men as patients too, not just women like the maternity wing.'

That's the heart of the matter.

fellatio, those are tactics my dd2's nursery use to tell her that i'll be coming soon: ' yes, mummy's on her way...'

so bloody patronising.

Hi, I'm new to the board.
I have been reading this thread with great interest. From reading all of the above posts, I am getting the feeling that some of the posters are more angry about being lied to, rather than not getting an epidural?

I have had 4 babies, 1 labour was managed on co-codamol in latent stage. I was offered pethedine and G&A with all 4 and declined, an epidural was never mentioned. I requested pethedine with all four and was declined as I was too far gone and delivered soon after.
I am actually quite grateful to the midives that supported me to go drug free. They realised that I was probably in the transitional stage of my labour and that pethedine would have affected my babies at birth.
Now, although I acknowledge that every woman has a right to manage her pain with everything that is available, I can't get my head around the fact that we are told to steer clear of anything that may harm the baby i.e. smoking,alcohol, drugs during pregnancy and yet during labour we are offered very strong opoids that will clearly affect the baby. Opoids of any sort including fentanyl administered by epidural will cross the placenta and have an affect on the newborn. I declined pain relief, not for myself as yes labour was agony, but for the sake of my babies. I somehow didn't like the idea that the first hours of their life would be spent drugged up to the eyeballs.
I don't think that my pain threshold is any higher than the average person, a dodgy gallbladder gave me proof that I don't tolorate pain very well. But labour pain is somewhat different,firstly, it is not a constant pain, it comes and goes with contractions. It builds up,peaks and then wears off.My body was working hard to help my babies.

But one point I would like to make is that good support from my loved ones, helped me to overcome each contraction. I was told by my OH, my mum and my cousin that I was brave, fantastic, amazing and that helped me through.It made me feel proud and good about what I was doing. And afterwards, looking at each baby, the feeling that I had acheived the birth through my own strength was priceless. I am eternally grateful to my loved ones that they had enough belief in my strengths and to remind me at a time when I needed it most.

elbow - I am glad your pain was manageable

By my fourth labour - my contractions,when they started, were almost continual with no let up. My contractions were on top of one another right from the start.

With my fifth labour it was evident that the midwife did not believe i was even IN labour and i contracted from 0-4 centimetres in ten minutes

I feel it is attitudes like yours that - unfortunately- lead to women NOT getting the pain relief they need in childbirth.

We ALL want what is best for our babies and loved ones and I would never judge a woman's devotion to her unborn child on whether or not her agony let her to scream for pain relief that crosses the placenta

Welcome to MN

Thanks for your response Paula.
I am by no means trying to turn anyone agains pain relief. My point was, it isn't about the devotion that a woman has to her unborn child, more the view that maybe more support would be better placed.

We (women) have been having babies since time began. I can't help but feel that childbirth is being sold to us as an illness that can be remedied with pills and anaesthesia, whilst we hand over the control over our bodies to health care professionals.
I do know how continuous pain feels.5:10, lasting a good minute or more, brought on by syntocinon was my labour number 4. Yes agony! But I knew that there was a reason for the pain and I knew that it wouldn't be forever...that was my mantra.
The beauty of labour is that it is not an illness, we know that there is an end in sight and we just need the support to get there.
That said, no woman should be told that she is NOT in labour if she feels she is. Early labour can be excrutiating, probably made worse by malposition. That said, our body is probably trying to let us know that we need to help it along, try a different position, walk,rock, squat. And when this happens, we should ignore our body, have an epidural, remain tied to a monitor and then maybe lose the power to push the baby out, end up with a trial of instrumental birth or a c-section? I just wish that there was more support in the labour room...

Elbowgrease, that's your experience. You really can't say that you "know" what another woman can cope with because you could manage.

"A minute or more" doesn't sound like continuous pain to me. Continuous means continuous e.g. no breaks, at all. Some women with back-to-back babies sometimes have the experience that there is intense back ache which overrides the actual experience of contractions. I had a back-to-back baby and didn't have this experience. Some women feel intense pain in the tops of their thighs. I didn't have this experience. Not everyone has a rising/fading experience of contractions.Not everyone is free to walk/rock/squat (medical need for continuous fetal monitoring) and are already tied to a bed etc.

As for equating having an epidural with "ignoring your body", are you serious? So if you are having a chemical induction which overrides your body's natural mechanism of labour, that's an okay way to medicalise labour/ignore your body yet having an epidural to manage this artificial level of pain is not? Surely, if you believe that childbirth should remain entirely natural you shouldn't have accepted a synto induction as, well, women have been having babies forever?

You are being wholly unreasonable to extrapolate from your own experiences in this regard.

And on the feminist issue:

Friend had appendectomy. Post-operatively, she was brought meals, bed pans etc. She was chastised for going to the toilet a few days after the operation as she had had "major surgery".

Friend had c-section. Called nurse to help her get 9lbs 10oz baby out of cot beside bed to feed. Told that there was no one to help so she would have to "get on with it". Friend made do by scooping up corners of sheet to use as makeshift hoist for baby as was unable to get out of bed . Stitches ripped and became infected. Friend was very poorly.

Working, totally agree with both your above posts.

A point I meant to make earlier is that pain relief for a late abortion is treated in the same way as pain relief in labour - i.e. you don't get anything much. And Elbowgrease's point about the well-being of the baby obviously doesn't apply in that case.

I had an abortion at 18 weeks. (Please no-one flame me: the baby was wanted and planned but had triploidy and wasn't viable, and I had pre-eclampsia.) I had to have labour medically induced, because that's the standard procedure for . I got sodding paracetamol. There was no earthly reason why they couldn't have knocked me out with morphine - I didn't have to be in any pain at all, but I was just expected to put up with it. In fact the care was generally appalling, and with hindsight I should have complained, but DH and I were both too shocked at the time to be in a state to complain.)

Sorry, above post should say "standard procedure for an abortion at that stage".

petsville i am so so sorry - that's appalling on so many levels . big hugs xxx

elbow : "The beauty of labour is that it is not an illness, we know that there is an end in sight and we just need the support to get there." Sorry - no, not in my case. I had 3 MWs, a doula and DH offering me the "support to get there" as well as all the hypnobirthing techniques I had been practicing. All of it useless. A "friend" ofmine "helpfully" told me that I coudl have coped without an epidural, because if I had given birth when they did not exist I would have had to. Well, yes, technically. Just as someone undergoing amputation would have "coped" in the days before anaesthesia. And we would have all "coped" with high levels of infant mortality in the days when epidemiology was poorly understood, sanitation was non-existent and medicine was less advanced. A completely useless and facile argument.
As for the point that women have been giving birth for millenia - well yes they have. And not without experiencing often terrible and life-limiting damage. Problems which women in developing countries still face due to the lack of adequate midwifery and obstetric care - obstetric fistual being a case in point.
I'm really pleased that you could cope. Some women do have births that are more manageable than others. Leaving aside questions of induction and management of the labour, perhaps some women are just luckier in this respect than others? Just as some women are luckier in pregnancy than others with fewer and milder symptoms.