Anyone else 'tricked' out of epidural?

[liznay]

I went over my birth notes today at the 'Birth Reflections' service at my local hospital. (In order to get closure and prepare for No 2!)
To cut a long story short, My previous labour was 27 hours from start to finish although I was only admitted for the last 7 hours.

I asked for an epidural no less than 6 times during this period and was given the excuse that I needed to be 4 cm before I could get one.
Suprise, Suprise, no one would examine me to check how dilated I was and so then it became 'too late' to give me once I had reached 10 cm.
Despite Nice guidelines saying that no woman should be refused an epidural (even in the latent first stage!) apparently the hospital have their own policy.
I am SO ANGRY about this and feel that I was ignored and treated like a small child. Incidentally, the hospital are unapologetic about this and refused to say sorry about the care I received. The most that they would conceed was that they had 'somehow failed me'.
Why is this still happening to us in the 21st century? Anyone else had a similar experience? What can we do about it, and how can we prevent it happening for subsequent births? It's time that midwives stopped deciding for us how much pain relief we need and consult with us regarding how to make our births more comfortable. Not saying that all midwives are like this, but mine was a particular dragon....
I don't want this to turn into a debate on the pro's/cons of epidurals as this has been done to death elsewhere...

The whole idea that a woman who is representative of an organisation dealing with other women who've had traumatic births should not express herself freely on a public radio show about birth because a teenager might get upset is beyond preposterous.

She shouldn't be representative of an organisation. She's far too emotional and clearly needs more help herself.

yeah, to be consistent we should stop saving people from cancer, cardiovascular diseases and all other forms of natural "population control".....
and of course we should have surgery without pain relief because we should accept that it is a "messy, noisy and painful" process...
so get on with with !!!

...are the Nazis back and I haven't noticed??

I don't think it is fair to slate Lucy BTA for her honesty. I think it is much more damaging to tell a young mother that birth is a cinch and pain relief will be offered, then she finds out in the midst of childbirth that it is agony and she is treated like a nuisance for complaining or needing support from a midwife!

As a child I was adamant I would never have children because I hated the idea of having people looking at my fanjo and poking around there. In the end, the human imperative to reproduce overtook any fears/qualms and I now have a beautiful DS. Once the urge to have kids hits you, you will do anything to complete that desire. But we need to be honest. Childbirth hurts.

"m185874 should be condemned by law to have all her teeth and..."

Sexism. Where is my gender specified? As for my comments being taken seriously - that expectation is very low anyway, given that this is little more than a pressure group for martyrs. Dissenting voices are quickly shouted down in such groups, as responses to other posters has shown. The illusion that being a mother is second only to being God must never be shattered, eh girls?

maybe you're not an android but on those religious preachers of some sort of misogynist cult...

again, you should go have surgery with no pain relief then come back to the Martyrs pressure group to talk about your experience...

She's far too emotional and clearly needs more help herself.

Were we watching the same person?! What rubbish.

You sound very emotional though Pooky. I can sense a fair bit of projection going on here

You were helpful Lucy - thank you.

And expatinscotland, so well said!

Thank you, ladies, for your kind words.

I stand by everything I said and I also believe that by talking about these issues honestly I am helping women. I know this because every time I do an appearance like this, we get contacted by so many women who thought that they were abnormal for having a bad birth experience, who believed that they were alone, and are now very relieved to have found out that whatever happened was not their fault and that they can recover and move on. So I won't apologise for doing what I believe in.

Do feel free to complain to the BBC about me, pooky, if you feel that your daughter has been permanently damaged.

Can we not feed m185874? With all due respect, m185874, you aren't being taken seriously as your comments are rude and abusive. And rather anti-women.

LucyBTA, well done for speaking out - I do feel there is sometimes a view that women who have traumatic births are somehow not allowed to talk about their experiences - and I see no good at all in silencing women in this way. A bad experience that simply isn't your fault is always made worse if someone doesn't believe you, or makes you feel ashamed of it.

Goldrill, I remember your thread about lack of epidurals - it was North Cumbria, I couldn't remember that bit. I was very surprised that a whole Trust didn't offer epidurals as a matter of policy - (again, this leaves me wondering that the value of NICE guidelines is?) - I remember too your post was while you were pregnant, and I'm really sorry having to give birth without an epidural meant it wasn't an experience you would repeat (birth without epidural, I mean, not birth itself).

I don't see how you draw attention to poor practice in childbirth without it being a bit alarming. I think if you stick to facts, talk honestly about your own feelings and allow that different people have different experiences, and want different births, then that's pretty much all you can do.

m185874 - if you want your comments to be respected, it is helpful to comment with respect. firstly, you came blazing in claiming that those who are complaining are "idiots" "like a bad case of thrush" who want midwives to give epis.

I didnt see the news this morning, so I don't know what was said, but I have read many comments on this thread, and none said they wanted midwives to give epis themselves. They just want their pain to be taken seriously, and they want midwives to arrange for an epidural when the pain becomes intolerable, which is something that they were promised in ante-natal care.

Then calling midwives, who have trained for several years "Doris from down the road", and "earthmother".

We are all from the "lunatic fringe" and mumsnet has "little enough credibility" - are you from the DM perchance?

"deliberately designed to not be a particularly pleasant experience as a means of stopping rampant population explosions" - er by whom? Unless you are a creationalist who believes women should suffer the pain of childbearing because of Eve this is a preposterous statement.

"People who want to go through the process drugged up to the eyeballs are subverting nature." -no one wants to go through the process drugged up, we just want to be treated with respect and listened to. We want to be told the truth, not fobbed off with lies and excuses. If a woman is in severe pain, and asks for an epi, she shouldne't be treated like a petulant child, and told "in a few minutes", then never given it. If there is no anaethatist available, she should be told this is why it isn't possible, and the midwife should stay with her and reassure her until she is calm. In most cases, if a woman is getting the attention and care she needs, I believe it is possible to do it without pain relief, but the issue is that midwives are understaffed and under resourced, so that they are unable to offer the kind of attention that a birthing mother needs.

"I have no sympathy." - that says it all really. From the tone of your post I think you are a man, and that you will never have to go through this. If so, you really have no right to comment on something that you have no idea about.

Lucy, as I have quickly realized, the politics of childbirth in this country make it impossible for people with bad experiences to come out. it's some sort of weakness you are showing if you are complaining.

I mentioned my brain damaged cousin by forceps in my NCT class to bring up the issues with assisted deliveries and everyone shut me up like I was a downer !!! they only wanted to talk about fairy lights, birthing pools and stuff like that.

i still haven't worked out why this is, there must be some sort of idealistic view of women giving birth that is too painful to change.

I'm an anasthetist and as such put in a lot of maternity epidurals. I spend a lot of time chatting to women about them and find that a lot of women feel guilty for asking for one. Which is understandable reading everything above. I am a firm believer in your bodyy your choice.

Some times I am in theatre with an emergency case so that will take priority so cant go straight away to do an epidural but will go as soon as I am free. Occasionally I have been just about to start one and have had to run away to an emergency (usually cs) thats just the way it is sometimes. If that is during the day sometimes you can find someone else to do it, especially in a big hospital.

I decided to have a home delivery and was lucky it all went well. I have put in 100's of epidurals but feel that personally the risks don't outweigh the benefits but thats my personal choise and I have no probelem with people making their own decisions. Informed choice is just that if you want something and can understand the risks and the benefits then you sound be able to have one. I gladly put in epiduarls into people if thats what they want. It is one of the good bits of the job-women go from being in complete agony sometimes not coping to being happy about being in labour. It is very satisfying.

My spelling/typic is bad...goes with the job. Hand writing bad too. I ment Anaesthetist. Ops

"you really have no right to comment on something you know nothing about" - I'm fine with that if you are, though I have been through the experience of all six of my children being born. I probably have more experience of the process than any other non-professional here.

As far as I can tell, there is only one anaesthetist here who has put in epidurals, everyone else, including me, hasn't. They're the only person qualified to talk about the pros and cons of the process and, significantly, they said they thought the risks outweighed the benefit.

Perhaps you should be listening to her instead of expecting instant attention when demanding risky pain relief while under stress and in no position to be making serious health decisions.

well done Lucy!

'As far as I can tell, there is only one anaesthetist here who has put in epidurals, everyone else, including me, hasn't. They're the only person qualified to talk about the pros and cons of the process and, significantly, they said they thought the risks outweighed the benefit.'

There are two. One expressed an alternate opinion, the other very clearly stated what she believed was best for herself, not others.

Now that's the last I'm feeding you. If others care to, that's their lookout.

m185874 Tue 22-Feb-11 11:43:19
"I have been through the experience of all six of my children being born." as a birthing partner or actually giving birth? Sorry, if you have been standing on the sidelinnes it doesn't count as actually experiening the pain, and so you have no right to say (paraphrasing here) "put up or shut up". If you had been my partner and said that during labour I would have punched you!

I agree with what you have said about anaeithatists being "the only person qualified to talk about the pros and cons of the process", however, a lot of women don't even get as far as talking to the anaethatist during labour, because they are fobbed off. We are not ignorant silly frivolous creature, but sentient intelligent adults, who should be allowed to make informed decisions about our own health and well-being. And the comment about being in no position to be making serious health decisions while in labour - what a patronising statement!

If you had a broken leg you'd be "expecting instant attention" - yet many women have experienced both broken limbs and childbirth and state that childbirth was much more painful. Why shouldn't we get intant attention, if it helps us cope? Not all of us have supportive partners. Some have ineffectual birthing partners. Some have no one. I was alone when I gave birth. No one to hold my hand. The nurses and midwives didn't have time to stay with me. An epidural was the only way I could cope.

Not worth feeding it, hissy, it's just stirring.

Yeah, you are probably right expat, I realised that after I posted! Some things are just too annoying to be left ininterfered with, like whiteheads.

Please can we ignore the idiot and not let this thread get derailed.

I think it's worth remembering that we are talking about a small minority of women here. I am not dismissing how traumatic some of the experiences that have been disclosed must have been but it is not every woman that comes out of childbirth feeling like this.

Equally it is only a small minority of midwives that are 'dinosaurs' and uncaring so please lets not tar everyone with the same brush.

I think most people realise that usually when things do go wrong it is the system which is at fault, not the individual midwives.

Well from my name you may guess I am a midwife. Have been for a lifetime and I have loved every minute of it....caring for women in labour is the most privileged position. I joined this group because of This Morning, and the news of these comments. I can honestly say I am appalled and saddened by the anger here, contained within most posts. Resources are indeed tight throughout the NHS, but this is NEVER an excuse for insensitive or poor care.
However, I need to add a word of caution. During the past 10 years I spent 8 of them listening to women who had been traumatised by their birth experience, as part of my role. I then developed mechanisms to help to address the issues women described. In line with current evidence, and contrary to what the BTA state, most women who had self defined trauma had actually HAD an epidural, and out of all the women only a handful described pain as a contributory factor. It was the loss of control (a definite side effect of epidural) that initiated the majority of the woman's distress. The fact that she had been 'done to' and not been able to birth her baby as she wanted to. These were women from all cultures and backgrounds. There are so many complications from epidurals.....they have a place definitely (my daughters both NEEDED them), but should be used with caution. Most women I saw did NOT know the complications of epidurals, and were adamant they would not have another with second baby.
For those of you who are pregnant, try not to listen to stories. Talk to your midwife, or ask to see a supervisor of midwives at the unit where you are booked. There are so many options for you to consider, but you do need to have all the information.

My mum used to be an anaesthatist and did loads of epidurals - she said (from the point of view of someone who would put my welfare 1st priority) definitely have one. I wouldn't have my teeth out without pain relief so why give birth? Both traditionally or 'naturally' done without but, hello, 21st century! Fair enough if you don't want one but ridiculous to not be allowed one.