Rearfacing Car Seats for 9 months to 4 years- Please read and spread the word

[Carseatcrazy]

Please please spread the word about rear facing car seats for 9 months to 4 years.

?In Sweden between July 2006 and November 2007 not one child under the age of six was killed in a car crash. Children in Sweden sit rear facing until the age of four.

205 children under 5 are seriously injured in the UK every year and a further 21 are killed, while in cars (the AA).

Two thirds of child fatalities in the under?four age group in the UK occur in cars (the AA).?

Rear facing car seats for this age group have now been proven to be 5 TIMES SAFER than forward facing.

If this isn't enough have a look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=Y2DVfqFhseo&feature=fvw

The other day I walked past a mum having her car fitted outside a well known retailer, and I felt so sad for her that the staff would be giving her the standard "no seat is safer than any other", when that is total rubbish There is a vast vast difference in the safety of these seats.

I just really want to spread the word to other mums and let them see the facts for themselves. (The government and retailers are of the view that UK parents don't want to buy these seats - and therefore don't tell us about them - incidentally there are places across the country now starting to stock them...)

I've done the research, and there is no way in this world I would now get a forward facing car seat. Yes they can be slightly more pricey- but generally about the same price as the higher end forward facing ones- and to be honest, I'm of the view that if you can possibly afford it, safety is the one thing you should skimp on

Anyway, if anyone wants more info, please just give me a shout, also there is loads of great info on: www.rearfacing.co.uk

happy car seat hunting

SCARYspicemonster, actually your assessment of the facts is wrong - if the AA quote is correct "Two thirds of child fatalities in the under?four age group in the UK occur in cars (the AA)." Which means that any under four year old is twice as likely to die inside a car than all other methods combined - including being killed crossing the street.

My DD is just 9kg so currently fits (although seems a bit uncomfortable sometimes) in her rearfacing first stage carseat.

I've been looking on the rearfacing website and I'd really like to get one. We went to the Baby & Co shop in Keynsham, which has just started stocking them, and they were very helpful.

We tried the Britax rear facing seat (which is supposed to be the one with the smallest footprint) in both our cars - a Toyota Avensis estate and a (admittedly old) Ford Focus.

Although the seat "fitted" behind the passenger seat in both cars it would have meant not being able to use the passenger seat at all in either car. One of us would have had to sit in the back with her and we wouldn't be able to carry any other passengers, which seemed a lot to compromise on.

Also, what if we had another baby? We would then either have to turn DD forward facing or take 2 cars for a family outing!

We tried the Kiddicare one with the barrier and it's much smaller but also wobbles about a lot on the seat.

Until they make the rear facing ones smaller (or we get a bigger car) I don't think we're going to be able to get one. I'm convinced on the safety aspect and even don't mind the extra money but I just don't see how it could work for us.

For now we're leaving her in her existing seat and we'll reconsider when she's bigger.

Actually, that isn't what I said at all - I said that without analysing the data within the context of population density, it's meaningless. And that quote is incorrect - 146 children were killed on roads in the UK in 2007 but most of those children were pedestrians - that is the leading cause of death, not being in a car. And you can see how critical population density is when you compare data from across the UK - a child is much more likely to be in a car crash in England than in Scotland, Wales or NI.

I think this whole thread (and the other one the OP started) is a big marketing exercise dressed up as concern and it irritates me.

CokeFan - I also have a ford focus and I've managed to fit a Besafe izi combi in the middle position giving both front seats full leg room (both me and my husband are over 5'11" and so we need the seats fully back to be able to fit in!). Then we get two passengers in either side who can chat away to ds The besafe is slightly narrower at the top of it than the britax, so it fits in quite nicely in ours. I'm not an expert on all the types, but I know others on the forum have also recommended some of the other britax ones- I think the 2way elite is meant to be a bit smaller. Anyway - if you give the Essex road safety officers a call I'm sure they'll be able to advise you - they have fitted so many car seats that they will probably be able to tell you straight away what your likely options are They can be contacted on: www.carseatinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?sid=19086&pid=292368&item=29819

Scaryspicemonster - I am asking you to please put your negative comments and personal issues aside for the benefit of other parents and the safety of their children. I am 100% genuine in my concern - as I'm sure everyone else is on this thread. I personally work in recruitment in the NHS - so my interest is definitely not personal, or marketing! I would dearly love to work in the rearfacing car seat market, as hopefully it will be an area that will grow huge in the UK in coming years, but for now, my career is firmly fixed on the NHS. So please don't get annoyed with your own imaginings!

I just think it's a bit odd that you've started 2 threads about this with your user name being what it is and all. But maybe you really are just an obsessed person.

I think given that your child is more likely to get hit by a car when they're outside on the street, you'd be better off focussing your energies there.

If people took the Advanced driving course they would be even more unlikely to get into or cause an accident in the first place and make the roads safer for everybody.

I have seen some appaling driving recently, mostly by women with children in the car.

I am a woman with children but I have also taken the advanced driving course. Not had a sniff of an accident in years.

Yep - absolutely - wholeheartedly and 100% obsessed with sharing info with other parents out there The government isn't going to do it, so it's up to us to campaign between ourselves. Don't worry Scaryspicemonster - I have plenty of energies left for everything else my little one needs Plenty to share around

CokeFan have you looked at the britax two way elite? i can fit it in a clio, a seat ibiza and a fiesta and still sit in the front. maybe worth checking this seat out? hth

I really don't understand why people get so annoyed when information about rear-facing seats is spread about.

maybe children are more at risk of being hit by a car than being involved in an accident in a car, but this doen't mean that information about what is the safest style of seat shouldn't be talked about.

honestly, some of the reasons given by manufacturesr and stockists as to why these seats aren't routinely sold over here is crazy - that Uk parents won't understand how to fit them, that UK parents would rather choose their seats based on fabric colour than on safety aspects etc etc

All we (and I include myself because I have taken part in similar threads before, as has the owner of the rearfacing site - sorry can't remember her posting name) want is to get the word out there, so that people who are interested know where to look for rear-facing toddler seats.

SCARYspicemonster, you seem not to be able to grasp that you are pointing to overall road deaths of children, where the AA quote is about the under 4s. So you saying that the AA quote is wrong based on your information doesn't actually make any sense.

Here's what you wrote:

"I work on probability. The likelihood that we're going to be involved in a really bad car accident is very small. The likelihood that it's going to be so bad that my DS, who is in a good, EU approved, age appropriate car seat, will be seriously injured in said crash, is even smaller."

If the AA quote is correct, and there's no information so far to indicate that it isn't, then your assessment is wrong. The AA says that of 21 fatalities in the under 5 group two thirds were in cars (rather than outside cars) - there is no information provided on the percentage that were in cars in the serious injuries.

So, given the information available, it's actually twice as likely that an under five will be killed inside a car, as outside. So your "probability* assessment is wrong.

I think people get annoyed about the rearfacing information due to feelings about potentially not having the safest option for their own DC.

I mentioned it to a friend the other day when we were talking about car seats and immediate defence- that RF seats werent available when she was looking etc etc.

I was shocked and I wont discuss it with anyone again- seems to be too much of a sore point.

Though i did want to mention it when another friend put her 6mth baby in a forward facing seat, it was way too early for him and it didnt look safe.

I don't know why it annoys me so much. I think it's the focus on car seats which cost £250 that I find slightly vexing. And also that it is only relevant up until the age of 4. Surely we care about our children and their safety even when they're older?

I find it worrying that when pedestrian death is the leading cause of injury for all children in the UK, there is not the same energy being devoted to making our roads safer for our children.

I think I find the focus on spending money to buy your child the very safest, most expensive car seat you can possibly find just a bit of an easy option rather than looking at how your child is most likely to be killed or injured over their entire childhood and doing something about that.

I'm having a bit of a cynical day to be honest - I heard on the radio this morning that 1 in 100 women die in childbirth in Afghanistan. Worrying that your child might be in the 0.0007% of under 16s that are killed in a car crash just seems to be a bit of a luxury that feels a bit wrong.

I'm probably making no sense - best ignore me I expect

I'm just about to post this on the rearfacing website, but has anyone done any research on turning round seats that can face either way(the whole seat, not just the actual child car seat)? I have a VW Sharan, and it has two seats with integral harnesses and boosters.

lockets- did she not offer to replace it? How rude!

GYo- I think you are exactly right. I have started making all kinds of excuses now about why we are getting a rear-facing seat, like we travel to Europe a lot and you have to have one there. If I say it's because I think they are safer people seem to get offended

But then based on that argument about luxury, scaryspicemonster, why buy a carseat at all? Also, how do you know that people who want to know about little publicized safer carseats don't also care about making roads safer for pedestrians? I think that's a red herring.

£250 does seem like a lot for an 'extra' thing for a child, in a car. But as a fraction of the price of a car, it's small. The way I see it, when I buy a car I'm buying one with four adult seats in it - that's how it comes, set up for adults not children. But I want to put a child in mine. So, when I buy a child car seat, I am buying an extra component of the car that it doesn't come with by default, but that I need. Put like that it doesn't seem as expensive to me - £250 to upgrade from a car I can't carry a child in to a car in which I can carry a child for several years doesn't seem that much. How much extra goes on to the price of a car if it comes with a CD player or electric windows or air conditioning or things like that? And a car seat is much more worthwhile.

What annoys me about this issue is that we go and choose a Which? best buy or whatever and feel we've got a relatively safe car seat, when only a few hundred miles away the very same carseat companies are being quite upfront about the relative inadequacy of those Which? best buys compared to rear-facing seats. It does seem like taking the piss - give us the choice by offering the seats here and let us decide for ourselves. Let everyone get the best car seat they can, out of the full possible range.

do older children in rf seats not get really sick?

i know i get sick if i sit backwards...

and i know that it's better to puke than die in a crash but if they puke every time you go in the car it's hard to make the child sit backwards.

Oh I agree thereluctantrobin about the luxury thing - it just made me sad this morning is all

SCARYspicemonster they don't have to be so expensive! i have one for ds that cost £186 and will last until he's 6 years old. agree it's a lot of money though.

fluffles afaik the kids aren't any worse-ff or rf. luckily (touch wood) none of mine are car sick!!

FourArms i think there is already a thread on the rf site about that. from what i remember you can't use the seats rf as they have not been crash tested. you could call the garage or www.incarsafetycentre.co.uk and check with them. either that or the essex road safety officers. they have a link from the rf site. they are v helpful and know everything!!

Haven't read the whole thread but we bought one after first reading about it on here. The ladies at in car safety will convince you if you need it. Recent headline news in the BMJ as well (british medical journal) - I linked to that article a while ago.

We've got a britax 2 way elite and its totally fab. No ds doesn't get sick and he likes the view out of the back window. About £180 IIRC

Just in case anyone is reading this and they have an older toddler or car that will struggle to fit a large RF in, it is proven that the FF car seats with the impact cushions are safer than the ones with the 5 point harness - added bonus is that they're harder to escape from too

I've got a BMW one but I know there is one that is about £140 new - will go have a look for it.

www.baby2k.com/sBB.cfm?productBrand=Kiddy_&stage=1

ScarySpiceMonster I worry all the time about my kids safety. Bought a larger people carrier over a zafira for the 0.5% of the time dd1 is sat in the rear sats because it's safer.

Always ensuring that walk right around the edge of the car park outside our back gate because of the nutter who speeds across it when it has a blind entrance/exit.

I think it's with car seats it's the "what if", if I were in a car crash and they died/were seriously injured because I didn't spend that extra £100? What really upsets me are people I know who won't use back boosters seats because their dc think they are babyish and yes they are under the legal height limit

Just had a look at the carseatinfo website mentioned towards the top of this thread - it has been created by a company called KidexLtd, and apart from all the typos, it totally omits to mention rear-facing seats, which are (as the OP has said) five times safer in a frontal collision.

As such, I would advise using the www.rearfacing.co.uk site for information, or contact the Essex In Car Safety ladies (see their contact details on the rearfacing site), who are impartial and not working on commission!

yep- I'd second that boyraiser - www.rearfacing.co.uk or the essex ladies are great contact points for more info- all totally impartial and just trying to spread the word

fluffles- apparently there's been research to show that rf does not cause any more travel sickness than ff. I think kids get sick if they look out the side windows, but it makes no difference regarding the front or back

Re- peoples guilt and defensiveness about seats when they ff their dc- really interesting to look at everyones comments on here- The way I see it, if people have already bought a seat, then I keep stum, but if I see people about to make that decision, then I do everything I can to share the info with them- hence starting this thread

thereluctantrobin - i totally agree with your point about Which - their information is so misleading, and it makes me so sad when I see parents using this or the "adivce" of shop assistants in mothercare etc who don't even know about rearfacing
I think on the rearfacing forum they have even done a petition to the government etc, but I don't think they really listenned- I guess it's up to us to keep the conversation alive within all our networks so that we can informally keep everyone informed Maybe then, when mothercare and halfords etc see their sales dropping for ff seats, they may suddenly think they need to do something about it

keep spreading the word guys (I must confess, obsession came over me so much, that the other day, when passing a lady in mothercare looking at a ff seat, I could help but mention rf to her as worth consideriing too - oh god what's happening to me!!!!!