'nipple confusion' - comments anyone ?

[hub2dee]

Hi all,

Our baby (one week old) was in NICU / SCBU for a few days, fed mostly on NGT (nasal tube to tummy) and bottle. A few sucks on the breast, but not much so she could conserve her energy.

We are now home, and have been continuing to bottle feed, and try at the breast, but not for extensive periods as the baby seems to find it difficult / boring / tiring - it's obviously not as 'easy' as sucking on a shaped teat with gravity assisted milk delivery !

A health visitor today said to dw that our baby has 'nipple confusion' and basically she should have been bfing more, earlier, and that in her experience, if we don't 'crack' bfing in one week, that will be it.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, DW was somewhat upset at this.

The HV suggested a nipple guard might help.

Wonder if anyone had similar experience to relate.

I appreciate that at the end of the day, DW must be the one to make the decision, and she must do what she feels happy with. I think if she felt perseveering might work she would feel happier trying, IYSWIM. As it is, having the baby struggle /cry for 15 / 20 minutes is difficult IYSWIM.

It was suggested to us that the 'baby to breast for 5 minutes, followed by a bottle' would not be a helpful way to develop the baby's ability to bf. Possibly feeding from a cup would....

Hmmm.... any comments MN crowd ?

TIA.

H2D, IMO breastfeeding is the one thing that midwives and HVs all think they're total experts on and they spout much drivel on the subject.

You've done the right thing getting proper help for Dee and Bean - love the kangacuddles she's getting atm!

(Can't wait to see more pics, but totally understand if you have more pressing things to do!)

Hub....please do write and complain about the misinformation. Not enough people do this, and the perpetrators go on their merry way thinking they know all there is to know

Ooops...PS make sure you pinpoint the right people. If this was in hospital it's unlikely to have been a health visitor (though not impossible).

Hi Hub2Dee. I'm really glad Chloe got back to you. I'll be the one with shoulder length brown hair and sadly only two hands... . We have to borrow the third from Sally or Chloe, which is why we can only breastfeed at the clinic. But, hopefully this week we'll be able to try with just two... Megan will be the one either feeding (that narrows it down then ), 'playing' on her red and yellow mat or lying spark out across my knees!
See you there,
Jenny

Morning JW !

Tried to track down that book yesterday. Waterstones think it's out of print, despite the correct ISBN number, Borders near us thought they had one but then didn't etc. etc. Do they sell them at the clinic ? Iwas kinda hoping to get an insight into their approaches etc. over the weekend. Amazon have them, and it's 'dispatched in 24 hours' but not sure it would get to me before I get to them IYSWIM.

Might do an MN shout for it, LOL.

Do you have a dh / dp on the scene, or is that the 'lack of third hand' ? Just wondering if any MNers might live close enough by that they could swing by your place occasionally to offer an additional 5, possibly 10 digits, LOL.

Just another thought Hub, a lot of "experts" now seem to recommend the Haberman feeder to avoid nipple confusion. ( if there really is such a thing LOL) It was designed for babies with cleft palate but seems to be going mainstream for prem babies and bottle refusers. It was recommended on the Baby Whisperer site

Oh dear, I had this problem (NGT and breast/bottle), we went down the route of topping up breast and I gave up breast feeding at 9 weeks.

The advisors are right that it's very difficult to combine at this age. If your wife feels up to it (not to mention you), then go the exclusive breast route. I had a section followed by SCBU and NGT and combined with a fatigue problem and undiagnosed thrush, I ended up hating breast feeding, so please be realistic. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out and you have to use bottle. (my son used to have a fit and kick and pummel me after 5 mins on the breast and I did an awful lot of pumping as well in those 9 weeks)

My son is now a healthy 18 mth old, but he is very demanding when it comes to food and I put this down entirely to his very early experiences.

Sorry if this seems negative and I should say I haven't read the other posts as this still upsets me.

But good luck with it all BTW I can thoroughly recommend the medula electric pump if you venture down that route! {smile]

Hi hub2dee, just wondering how its going?? apologies but haven't read the whole thread yet.

i'm doing okay, but would still consider myself struggling. although did have a couple of good hours sleep last night. breasts also hurting when they are 'filling up' with milk. its all a bit strange and wish someone would bring out a book about 'things they do not tell you about breastfeeding' - like odd twinges and the prolonged afterpain....

But i've found that just by getting my DD2 to latch on properly today has relieved alot of the pain.

Hope you're both okay ...

Hi chipmonkey. The HV we saw ('crack it in one week, luv') did mention Habermans, so I'll look into that. Thanks for the link.

vkone - yeah, it's a bit tough, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen and there are plenty of other things to worry about. When DW wants to, she could express abd when that is inconvenient / too much of a drag, we can use formula. She would very much like to bf though, so if some professional assistance can help get it started / sorted, it will be worth going for.

I think we bought the medela (battery / tranny). Great little unit, although the plastic 'collector' just developed a hairline crack after one week.

blossom2 - JennyWren at 5:02 AM () linked to a book called ' Bestfeeding'. Amazon have it on 24 hour delivery with an ISBN number if you wanted to try a local bookshop. By all accounts Chloe Fisher knows her stuff, and possibly this book may be of interest.

HTH

Hub2Dee, you sound a really lovely man, but if your wife very much wants to breastfeed, then please don't tell her it isn't a big deal - even to comfort her. I'm really not being critical, I know that men (like my own husband!!) say this with the very best and most loving of motives, but if your wife is like me, then it is a big deal and of course I don't know you or your wife at all, so could be totally, 100% wrong, but for me what would have helped more is to help and encourage me when breastfeeding was tricky and not push formula at all. OF course there are times when formula is essential and I don't think it is a bad thing, but I don't think most men truly understand the emotional imperative of breastfeeding for some women. For me, not panicking when the baby is crying, reassurance that it can work out, and following my cues was more helpful than getting out the formula and reassuring me that it didn't matter how my baby got fed. Please, please don't take this the wrong way and of course I might be completely misreading your situation. My husband is fantastic and a wonderful father, but he never really understood why breastfeeding was so important to me.

I understand your point, aloha, and I am entirely behind my wife desiring to bf our baby. (Hence the thread, hence the bf cafés, hence the lactation consultants, hence the web research etc. etc.).

For the bloke, it's a bit of a no win. If we 'don't worry, hun, we can express or we can use formula' we're not supportive of the desire - or need (biological and emotional imperitaive you mention for some women) IYSWIM. If we 'come on, hun, we've got to get this bf sorted' then we are pushy / dictatorial / possibly assuming socio-political control over her body or her desires re: feeding the baby.

(Playing Devil's advocate a bit to make my point... I'm not as arsey as the above sounds, honest).

We will give it a good go, and I will be supportive. FWIW, it's dw who would get more panicky when the baby cries, or who would worry more about trying a half day bf -exclusive even if the baby kicks up a fuss IYSWIM (obviously within an understanding that the baby's need for milk is safely accounted for), as was discussed on berolina's thread by mears et al.

We'll just take it a day at a time and see how it goes I guess. Any comments and suggestions still appreciated !

and I did two breast and one bottle h so it not like oyu neever can again

Hub, haven't read the whole hread so sorry if I am repeating anything but at 4lb 4oz, your dd is very small and small babies do find bf very tiring. My dd1 was tubefed for 3 weeks before i bf (I expressed my milk for those 3 weeks) and it does take a lot for a premature baby to bf. Their mouths are tiny and its tiring. I just kept trying and eventally we cracked it, DD1 came home with a tube still in because I couldn't get into a bf routine in SCBU as I couldn't be there all the time, so was able to top her feed up with the tube until I felt she was feeding enough.
Tell Dee to keep trying and it will get better

I agree ff.

I agree sparkly. Camille is small, small mouth, ickle tongue etc. it will be hard / frustrating / tiring for her to bf, but like all things it can be learnt, so we will just slowly slowly and I'm pretty sure that given two - four weeks and some professional advice, she'll be munching away shortly.

and yes it was 4 weeks with my two before it wasnt an issue - tha pain
tell ehr to sit tight and NOT MOVE

Hey Hub2Dee, I know it's a really hard thing to explain without sounding critical, so please, please don't think I'm criticising you. Actually the reason I put the bit about not panicking is because I was betting that Dee was getting upset when the baby was crying . Personally I needed my dh to be calm wnen i was going doolally and reassure me that i could breastfeed and get past problems. It's SO hard to say any of this without sounding critical and I honestly, absolutely don't want to. You are completely right about it being a bit of a no-win - that's what husbands are for - but to be serious, for me personally, I just felt it was important that my dh understood that breastfeeding really, really mattered to me. He would play it down a bit because he loves me and didn't want me to feel under pressure or like a failure, but sometimes I felt as if he didn't quite understand how much it meant to me and was belittling my feelings. Ignore all of this if you want, I was just trying to express (clumsily) what it might feel like if your wife is anything at all like me.
BTW I had a sticky start to breastfeeding ds and it was all fine in the end, so good luck to both of you.
And yes, of course it isn't the end of the world if the breastfeeding doesn't work out, but I didn't want anyone talking about that to me in the early days - and you've got plenty of time! Good luck. You have an absolutely beautiful daughter.

and crying babies drive you nuts
ctying that's stheir sole activity really
sleep cry sleep cry

its their thang man

yes Hub in a few weeks she will be bf happily and you will be wondering what on earth the HV was on about.
Not sure if you know this, but if you hold a cup on EBM to Camille's mouth she will lap it up like a cat, something that premature babies can do apparently, and it won't confuse her with bottlefeeding and BF.

Agree with everyone it takes two to breastfeed - you and the baby and you learn together. Babies get much, much better at breastfeeding the bigger and more experienced they are. It really isn't all down to the mother.

hi.

Just wanted to say that i came across nipple confusion when doing my Baby Friendly BF training, and from what i see it's a challenge but CAN be done.

You have to what's right for you. My HV told me to give up BF with ds3 (wasn't gaining weight), persevered and eventually was READY to give up at 15 months. Turned out he was just small built according to paeds. Eats anything you can imagine now, still 0.4th centile! But Sis had a tube fed baby and decided to switch to bottle feeding after problems like yours, mainly tho because she was tired after 4 weeks in SCBU / pre-eclampsia.

Hope it all goes well for you, hope the bf works, but more importantly hope you all stay happy X

How's it going hub?

I'm no expert, but I speak as someone who's BF plans were blown apart by Elijah's traumatic delivery. He spent 48 hours having IV Glucose as his blood sugar was low and it was suspected that he wouldn't tolerate formula. His initial APGAR was 3 and, though his brain was scanned and deemed unaffected, we were told that a baby will sacrifice blood flow to internal organs to conserve blood-flow to the brain IYSWIM.

His cannula needed to be re-sited after 48 hours and I found it particularly distressing to see him pinned down and re-cannulated. A very kind neo-natal nurse took us to one side and suggested using donated breast milk until my own milk came in. It was upsetting, as I felt that after such a crappy birth the least I could do was feed him. We continued with the DBM and me BF him in between. After a few days my milk appeared and he didn't need the DBM, which was a relief as we'd been told that, due to the shock of Bo's death there was a possibility that I wouldn't lactate.

Fast forward five months and he is now BF perfectly. Keep going with whatever Camille needs. Formula? Fine. Just keep BF regularly and, once her mouth is bigger, she'll probably latch on and stay on fine.

XXXXX

Sparkly ! Your 'lap it up like a cat' line had me grabbing the teat cover cup of the bottle tonight and she GULPED it down from there (plus of course all over her clothes LOL), but she really drank it easily, me semi-offering, semi-pouring into her mouth. It was cute. Not sure I was doing it right, or if it is helpful, but she drank LOADS.

Thanks for everyone's other messages, and hi to bubble99. Dee's milk, like yours, came in a few days after birth. I am glad Elijah is bfing to his heart's content.

I'm fairly OK with the crying baby throws out at the moment (heartless old sod that I am), but I think it pulls at DW's heartstrings much more !

aloha, yes, Dee does get upset when the baby cries and screams at the breast because she can't quite get it right, but don't worry, I stay perfectly calm and simply go through the latching instructions / hand expressing instructions slowly and calmly trying to help a little. I understand the feelings you are writing about. Thanks for the comps on the little one.

OK. Night all.

Hub, you are suppose to hold it to her lips but it does stop nipple confusion....

Oh... I may have been overly helpful with the gravity, but I tried to keep the angle fairly flat so she would have to work a bit to get it, LOL.

She has the cutest little tongue, but seems lazy with it, saving it for best, LOL.

Thanks for your help !