i think thrush has won the battle to BF

[forevermore]

well i think this is my last thread as a breastfeeder
DD2 is 8 weeks and up to 4 weeks did what it says on the tin. then started feeding erractically. 5 - 10 min max, fussing in evenings, lots of farting, persistant white tongue which has not shifted after 4 weeks of nystatin and daktarin gel. she is pooing now every 2-3 days and its like a dark mustard paste.
last night she cried for 5 hours after having fed reasonably well throughout the day (every 2 hours for 5-10 min)....in evenings, however, pulling on and off the breast and only settled with a dummy - eventually - then fed well in the night.
some days she feeds well and no fussing in the evening but to be honest these days are overshadowed after a night like last night.

now week 9 tongue is still white tongue; still applying daktarin gel to her and cream to me and i am fed up. i am obviously no good for her (i.e giving her thrush which i think is making her unsettled) is formula the answer???? if yes how do i start, when and how much.

Please don't stop when you're doing so well.

It sounds like you need to treat YOU as well. Flucanazole is recommended by the Breastfeeding council, although you may need to persuade your doctor as it's not licensed for breastfeeding. I'll find a leaflet in a minute and post it here.

The other thing I would say is that pooing every 2 - 3 days is fine. Both my dd's only pooed once a week! The colour sounds perfect too.

Also the evening unsettledness sounds normal too and it's possible she's a bit colicky too, could be a growth spurt too.

Hopefully others will come with advice.

i forgot to add; DD2 had tongue tie which was corrected a fortnight ago.

i dont feel like i am doing anything well and my DH is fed up with me and I of him so this has to stop. I also have a 4 year old and she is missing her 'normal' mummy. Am I expecting too much. I never breastfed before. And i want this white tongue GONE. I feel like that is now the answer.

leaflet here

No advice just bumping.

You sound so hard on yourself. DD1 was 5 when DD2 came along and it is hard, although they understand I think there's more jealousy there. Has she got a doll she can 'feed' at the same time? Or a favourite DVD you can put on?

Are there any groups you can take them too where there'll be other mums desperate to cuddle a newborn so that you can spend time with your DD1?

hi forever

sorry - typing one handed as bf!

my 5 week twins and i both had / have thrush. getting better now - i used canasten on my nips as well asthe timodene cream the doc prescribed - washed off before feeding.

Fluconazole is also what is in the tablet you get in over the counter canasten duo.

just a thought about why it might be persisting - how are you sterilising her dummy? steam sterilising doesn't kill thrush - you have to boil for at least 15 mins or use something like milton.

we were told to ditch the dummies due to the thrush, but cracked after 24 hours and bought some milton. we sterilise dummies 2 times a day . thrush has nearly cleared up. hope that's helpful...

eeek! the leaflet says steam is better than milton!!

maybe my doc was wrong! [hmmm]

hmmm

Are you quite sure the white tongue is a problem? DD (9 weeks) has a white tongue (although fading a bit now) and the doctor, midwife and health visitor have all assured me this is perfectly normal.

second ltj - all three of mine have had white tongues which were the result of milk residue rather than thrush.
everything else sounds normal - the poo included. ds2 (7 weeks) has poo days i.e. doesn't poo every day.

Have to agree with the others who are wondering whether the white tongue is really a problem? Do you have any symptoms or just dd? Who diagnosed the thrush in your dd? Do you have a breastfeeding specialist midwife you could see? Have you tried the helplines?

Yes was also going to say, dd always had a white tongue from milk residue. Have other reasons for the unsettled behaviour been investigated- reflux, colic etc?

I had thrush and, like Zippysmum, it was canestan on the nips (applied after each feed and washed off before the next) which helped.

Agree, though, with the others that the white tongue could be the milk. I got DD checked out regularly when I was suffering and she never picked up thrush.

Have you talked to your health visitor about this? Mine was very helpful.

Both my DSs had white tongues - I am pretty sure in most cases it's just milk residue as other posters have said.

TBH many babies are very unsettled in the evenings, this often sorts itself out after around 10-12 weeks and bottle feeding wouldn't solve this.

Also I think having a poo every 2-3 days is fine for a breastfed baby at this stage.

You could try using a sling for your baby - it means you have hands free to read to/play with your eldest and also a sling is a good way to settle a fractious baby (if you get a ring sling you can also feed when your baby is in the sling).

It might be that you have fast milk flow - as the feeds are short and your baby is a bit fussy.
Some useful advice here
www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/fussy-while-nursing.html

flucanazole - an oral tablet. It will clear the thrush up on you within just 2 or 3 days. And the baby will heal as well with this if you keep giving nystatin. I had a few horrible bouts of thrush and it was awful flucanazole tablets were the only thing that worked.

It is awful when you are having such a difficult time but it can and does get better.

I went around in similar circles with treatment
and I really think it was the addition of Grapefruit seed extract tablets, recommended as a complement to the fluconazole treatment in the La Leche leaflet, that made the difference.

Going to a local breastfeeding support group for a cup of tea and a moan was great too.

Good luck, hope things work out.

I agree with other posters that white tongues can be misdiagnosed.

We had a difficult experience with thrush too and it can be so hard to keep going with the bf - but we did and things did get better.

I would never have thought of thrush until the midwife saw his white tongue at about 8 weeks (which I had always assumed was milk residue). As soon as she mentioned this I felt terribly guilty as I hadn't noticed any symptoms or anything and never really knew babies could get it!

After this (and reading the leaflet and getting all uspet) I started feeling 'symptoms' too and noticed more fussiness in DS when feeding. He had nystatin and then daktarin gel for ages, and I had cream and then fluconozale.

Nothings seemed to shift his white tongue, or my apparent symptoms and I saw lots of different GPs to get their opinion. Eventually one sensible GP took a swab of his tongue and it came back to say there was no trace of thrush at all!!

Which was totally weird and odd. After this I stopped all the treatments and relaxed a bit about it and all of our symptoms (including DS's white tongue) vanished. I'm now not sure if we ever had it or not, or if we were just going through a difficult/anxious phase.

I'd get you GP to take a swab before giving up BF. The GPS are a bit rubbish about giving advice and treatment for thrush and (as I learnt) it can be easily misdiagnosed. I found that once the whole thrush anxiety and guilt was removed the breastfeeding improved and we've never looked back! I wonder if around 2 - 3 months is a difficult stage for breastfeeders anyway?

Good luck and I hope you get things sorted and please don't be hard on yourself!

hi all; thanks for replies. a lactation consultant and paed who did tongue tie said thrush; two GPs said milk residue also swab was negative for thrush; but somehow i trust lactation consultant and paed more so still treating......now not so sure.

she is very windy (which i thought was due to yeast??) also she was born by c-section and i had gestational diabetes, so i thought high sugar aenvironment and antibiotics all were risk factors...so must be thrush???
However, I have no breast symptom (pain or itchiness or cracks).....

we use milton to sterilse dummy which i read was better than steam.

i am really confused now. scared to go back to GP and lactation consultant was adamant it was thrush and said swabs can be inaccurate, and just seems so knowledgable about the whole BF things that i thought she can't be wrong, same for Paed at the tongue tie clinic.

I think i will try the sling and go back to GP and ask for fluconazole. what do you think?

finally how would you know if it was reflux?? this is the only other thought I am having about unsettled behaviour, although from what many of you say fussiness is just something to see put!

i mean't 'fussiness is just something to see out'

DS1 was very unsettled and windy (lots of crying/tummy ache/kicking legs etc) and I convinced myself he had colic/reflux etc etc.
But when my milk supply and flow settled down, after about 12 weeks, he also settled down and was much calmer.

With DS2 I realised I had fast milk flow (he would splutter and choke when I started to feed him and if I took him off milk would spray everywhere) so I took steps to slow it down. I would express a bit into a muslin before a feed so that when he started to feed the flow wasnt too fast for him to cope with.

Do you think this might be what is causing your DD to fuss?

I can't see how a swab would be incaacurate, if thrush was present it surely it would be detected.

Anyway, try not to worry too much if you can...

I think you should forget about the thrush. If the only symptom you have is a white tongue, then it's not very likely to be that.

But wind, unsettled, crying... it sounds like colic or possibly reflux (which my DD has). Is she unhappier lying down flat than upright? Do burps seem to sometimes upset / hurt her? Does she go through phases of being inconsolable which seem at odds with her normal personality?

Sorry - I was under the impression that you had symptoms as well. That's why I recommended flucanazole. For me I was cracked, bleeding, sore inside the breast... bright pink around nipples, it was awful and so painful and flucanazole is all that worked.
If you have no symptoms yourself, I'm not sure if that will work or not...

It might well be something other than thrush (the white tongue).

DS was really windy and unsettled and crying in pain for a while - We took him to the cranial osteopath, which I was VERY about , but she said she thought he had a digestive problem. After the first visit there was a little improvement, after 3 visits, he was a happier, more calm baby. I'm still about it when I see her just lay her hands on him... seems like she's doing nothing! But I can tell you, for us, for the windy and unsettledness... it so worked! He was such a happy baby after hte treatment!
I highly recommend giving a cranial osteopath a go. Make sure it's a cranial osteopath, though - who normally works with babies. Not just an ordinary osteopath who usually works with adults. There's a difference (in my area at least)..

I agree with Longtalljosie in that if it's just a white tongue (no nappy rash or symptoms in you) to just forget about it.

I'd also echo the ideas about fast flow- this can cause real fussiness. Expressing into a muslin and waiting until that first big let-down has passed can help, and how about feeding with you reclined back? so you feed in the 'biological nurturing' position. Info here (beware the wording is very cheesy!) I think the idea is the milk can't shoot out so easily as it's 'uphill'!