Daisy Goodwin - how much do you reckon she got paid to write this nasty drivel?

[fabsmum]

NCTgetsitintheneckagain

What a horrible, article to write in National Breastfeeding Awareness week.

And using the case of that suicidal woman in the US to have a pop at breastfeeding advocates in the UK.

Oh, and Lissy - where did you hear you can't treat a cold when bf with Lemsip??

Fabsmum,

I did say in my post that my ante natal classes were not NCT - they were council run classes and when one girl said that she would like to FF so that her husband could help with the feeding, she was given short shrift by the midwife, who was polite but couldn't hide her disapproval.

I absolutely agree with breastfeeding, but I understand (having been through it!) the frustration involved. I just wish that I'd know before I started how hard it was going to be. I didn't realise that it could take months of trying to get the baby latched on properly and that even if it looked as if she was on properly, she might not be. I felt that there was no one to turn to when it was going badly.

I didn't mean to lay any blame on the classes' doors - where I live, the government are really pushing breastfeeding which is great, but when I walk past billboards advertising all the benefits of breastfeeding and go to the classes where it's really encouraged, I just wish that they'd put as much effort into helping mothers after they have the babies. You just have to read mn to see how many people are struggling. Thank heavens for these websites and forums - I only wish I'd discovered them months ago!

starvin, you say "when I walk past billboards advertising all the benefits of breastfeeding and go to the classes where it's really encouraged, I just wish that they'd put as much effort into helping mothers after they have the babies"

Agreed, 100 per cent.

And if midwives disapprove of formula feeding, then they have to learn to hide their disapproval!

Was this billed as a 'breastfeeding class', starvin? I think it's helpful if it is, then people who want to ff know what to expect, and can choose whether or not to do. It's not reasonable for the breastfeeding class to be expected to include a lot of information about formula feeding...like the pilates class analogy earlier, it's like signing up for aerobics, and asking the teacher to include a session on yoga as well.

Babies, guffaw heartily at fish with full head pictures (although I am actually the sort of person who would happily go for that!)

It's fine to say breastfeeding is hard and sometimes boring and tedious and painful. Same applies for a lot of things in life (my MSc being a case in point.It has nearly killed me but I keep going because it means the world to me). What we all need to do is ensure people have the knowledge and support they need to carry on (if that is what they want.)

Breastfeeding was extremely difficult and painful to me. Do I therefore blame the fantastic MWs and HVs who encouraged me to keep at it?

Er....no.

I like the Pilates/Yoga analogy!

Message withdrawn

I've posted this before, so apologies to those who've already seen it, but just to repeat

Paul Dacre, editor of the Daily Mail, has an irrational and obsessive hatred of breastfeeding (ditto working women, although at least half his staff fall into that category). His minion editors will do anything to pander to his prejudices. His hatred was compounded when he went to Downing Street for drinks and Cherie Blair entered with the then infant Leo, whipped out a breast and latched him on. Dacre was apopleptic and his vendetta against Cherie and bf tripled henceforth.

Am not a Cherie fan but she went up a million per cent in my esteem after that.

How lucky for me that because I received practically no breastfeeding advice I was also not told what my diet should consist of - so I just carried on as normal. It's not like I subsist on chips and pizzas and eat nothing else anyway. (although my MIL helpfully told me that if I wanted to have milk I had to drink milk!!) Anyway, I never worried about having a perfect diet!

Daisy Goodwin's article is just basically opinion. Opinion printed in black and white to give it a bit of authority, but opinion nonetheless. At least, as one poster has already said, it's aimed at a readership largely past the age where they are likely to be breastfeeding.

Ok forgive me here... I think Im going to get blasted by all of you...

I happen to agree with the article. I BF DS1 for 8 weeks. Although I loved feeding him it was making me into someone who I didn't recognise. I had the most horrific time with him and wouldn't wish it upon anyone. (I guess we all go through that too)

When DS2 came along I had a section 11 days early and I didn't have any milk for a while. I did feed him myself (for the 1st 4 days). My nipples became sore and I hadn't slept for the nights following his birth-at all! My MIL and Mum came to visit and made me feel awful for even contemplating giving him a bottle. I found them really not helpful and the aftercare I received from the post-natal ward was severely lacking too.
Eventually my community midwife came to see me and I told her I was feeling really anxious (something which I suffer with when I have no sleep) she asked me whether or not I had considered formula. I said yes but I feel so guilty. She then said would you rather go home after having a good nights sleep ready to settle back into your family again or would you rather be in a mother and baby unit (I was in one after DS1 was born as I was contemplating suicide.. sounds wrong writting it down. I was so close to doing it I had to be restrained...).
She put so much of it in perspective for me and I decided then and there I would give him formula.

I think far too much pressure is put on women to breast feed when they are clearly struggling. Sometimes it takes for someone to say 'its ok to feed formula'. I tried and I just couldn't mentally/physically do it.
He is fine now a very happy and healthy 1 year old. I do feel the odd pang of guilt for not Breastfeeding him sometimes but then I'm sure I would have felt a lot worse if I didn't... Oh and I was in hospital for 3 months while pregnant with DS2...

"Sometimes it takes for someone to say 'its ok to feed formula'. "

I think though that's the problem - that we need to have the support around birth and the postnatal period such tha we have confidence in making our own decisions about feeding - it leaves us terribly vulnerable, to lack that confidence and have to rely on outsider/health pro approval. I appreciate I was fortunate in that my family didn't pressure me about feeding in anyway at all.

And I say that from the perspective of having had enormous difficulty establishing bfing then ending up with a readmission due to jaundice/dehydration (which was partly IMO due to poor advice on discharge about the impact of lots of top-ups in hospital on supply), and giving up bfing completely at 8 weeks.

Cazzaben,

What part of the article did you agree with?

All of it?

Do you agree with the writer that m/w and other bf supporters should simply suggest using formula as a first response to a mum struggling with breastfeeding, even when they have been told by that mother that she wants to breastfeed, and in the knowledge that many women who supplement end up stopping breastfeeding before they want to?

It sounds to me like your problems with breastfeeding were quite emotionally complex. I'm wondering why formula was suggested in the absence of any other attempt to help make breastfeeding more bearable for you. TBH I'm a bit saddened by the approach of a midwife in setting out your options as - give your baby a bottle or you'll be seriously ill.

I still don't think the article made any sort of case for more breastfeeding mums to be encouraged to bottlefeed as a response to their breastfeeding problems. I mean - that's where we've been for the past 40 years in this country, and look where it's got us - ever more women trying to breastfeed, but most giving up because of problems (problems which much of the time are caused by supplementation.......)

tiktok - No, I don't think its a problem to mention it twice, not if I think its relevant. Its just sad that one representative of an organisation can give such a negative encounter - I wanted to highlight that the negative experience that some people have had with bf counsellors (sorry, can't spell) and the NCT, plus the disapproving looks from some other mums when seen bottle feeding. Can we not all be a little easier on each other?

Some friends I know have had truly wonderful help from bf organisations (NCT and others) but sadly not me. I think that its part of why articles like Daisy Goodwin's are written and partly why there is an audience for them. Sad but true.

"Sometimes it takes for someone to say 'its ok to feed formula'.

everyone I know in RL, including myself, has been under pressure to give their baby formula from as early as possible. In fact I don't know anyone in RL [thank god for MN] who has submitted to that pressure, believing the docs and midwives when they say they don't have enough milk, etc, and who has n't started mixed feeding [inevitably cutting down breast milk supply and then leading to exclusive bottle feeding] If it hadn't been for MN I probably would have done the same. MN, with its generally pro-breastfeeding stance, is not very representative of the general public or the general medical world, [I was told by my gp to give up at 4 months as I had sore nipples]so I find DG's stance a little disingenuous to say the least.

ruty - that wasn't my experience - on the postnatal ward on the one hand formula top-ups were pushed on many ladies on the ward, including, I suspect people who didn't have supply problems - whilst on the other hand I was told that I had to make sure the formula bottles weren't visible as they couldn't be seen to be encouraging ffing , I think because they were a baby friendly hospital.... the only health pro I saw who hinted at me jacking in the bfing was the consultant paed who saw us when DS ended up admitted for jaundice/dehydration.

fuzzy - I agree, it is sad that one representative of an organisation can make such a negative impression. NCT speaks to something like 60,000 women a year about bf - there are bound to be times when it goes wrong. And when it goes wrong, you need to tell whoever it was that did it that it went wrong - and you didn't.

I don't know why you didn't - but it does upset/frustrate/irritate me that people who are volunteers, who put their time and energy into helping other mothers, who are (believe me) full of goodwill towards others, are then criticised publicly, when they have no chance to do the right thing
because the criticiser has not told them something they did created this negative impression.

The words you report the NCT counsellor using are awful - they are simply not typical of our ethos or outlook or policy (yes, we have a Baby Feeding Policy).

Instead of doing something about it, where it could be addressed and corrected, you come on here and report it.

It isn't fair

Cazzaben, what you are describing is dreadful postnatal care, an unsupportive and judgemental mother and MIL, serious postnatal mental illness....how can you 'agree' with an article that slags off NCT and breastfeeding supporters? Your experience is not reflected in the article at all.

The community midwife you saw may well have helped you resolves things in a way that was right for you. Good postnatal care would not have left you in a state for several days...and would maybe have found out from you what you wanted to do, and helped you find a way to do it.

I am not 'blasting' you . I am saying your experience does not back the article up in any way.

Starlight - did you see my shout out for you earlier today...new thread?

at starlight.

I wish there was abit more honesty from HCP and breastfeeding counsellors about how difficult and painful it can be to establish breastfeeding. I know this is very hard for them as they are rightly trying to encourage bf-ing but I really dont know any first time bf-ing mothers who didnt experience pain/stress at first.

The message should be that although it can be hard intially, in fact really tough sometimes, it is WORTH it - both for optimal nutrition/comfort for the baby and because it makes life actually easier once you are over that first difficult period. To be told breezily that it "shouldn't hurt" when you have just been discharged from hospital because your newborn has swallowed so much blood from your nipples doesnt help!

I agree it's not a nice article and I hate the use of a word like 'gestapo'. However the point I do agree with is that bf needs to be put in perspective.

Manic, indeed.
And the figures showing the present lamentable rate of breastfeeding in UK are proof of this.

Let's give it the profile and attention that is presently accorded to state of the art travel systems, nappy bins and silly matching outfits.

Starlight:
"Your post makes me quite angry (you don't) because over and over again I see women feeling guilty about not breastfeeding (negative emotion) and then directing their anger at breastfeeding supporters (another negative) when they should be screaming at the top of their lungs at the poor maternity services, poor after care, rubbish Employment policies etc etc."

that's exactly how I feel about this whole thing. I have met mothers who believe that FF has the risks it is proven to have - until they are forced by circumstances to stop BF. I presume it is guilt that then makes them rubbish those risks and (in one particular case) get offended when I (or others) mention the importance of breastfeeding support. Surely that should be more important to them - BF is what they wanted to do!

In the scheme of things, FF their baby is not the worst thing that could happen - if I have read the statistics right then chances are, nothing bad will happen to their individual baby because they have FF, but to rail at and insult women who want to encourage and support other mothers to do what is ideal for their child is something that will just perpetuate the cycle of guilt that they are in. We all want to aim for the ideal, and if we don't get there, we don't, but we shouldn't stop trying!

There are so many things that can be done to improve ante and post natal support, information and care - articles and sentiments like that are not among them. I can imagine the reaction if someone wrote an article insulting formula feeders (or some subset of them) in a similar tone.

What makes me really fume is that uninformed ranters like Daisy Goodwin - and Zoe Williams, come to that - are able to fire off these ignorant, misleading salvos which are lapped up by the media because they think - 'ooh, they've had children, they must know, and we hear so much about how breastfeeding is so Good, so there MUST be a flip side'. And the style and context of these articles is such that no substantiating evidence is offered, or called for. They get massive exposure or airtime. But they're columnists, not science correspondents! They deal in opinion, but it's presented as Fact.

And then the health service wonders why it has such a problem in getting the message across.