Nell McAndrew article on extended breastfeeding

[treacletart]

here

is there a case for bottle feeding over the age of 2 or 3?

Well pointy dog, in my very unexpert opinion lol i do not agree with it really but like extended bf its none of my business to pass judgment, i am just talking on a general level.

There is a large study that shows people with red hair are significantly more attractive than all other hair types.

Oh the boy I fell in love with at school had curly red hair. He was beautiful.

piglet, bfing is a very robust function given the right chance to develop along a normal paradigm. It is not compromised significanly by diet, stress, temperature, the day of the week etc except for in very extreme cases ie absolute starvation, life threatening illness/injury. Even in the midst of terrible, awful times, bfing carries on.

What an interesting discussion. Even more interesting how it happened because of an article by Nell McAndrew

Just wanted to express some thoughts really. Some of them have been on my mind anyway recently (which is why a couple of days ago I posted another thread about 'how do you know when bf ends').

A couple of points.

First, responding to TikTok: bf and extended / natural term bf is not only about medical facts. Of course I know, TikTok, that you know this very very well, as you've responded so sensitively to many of my own anxieties in the past. BF is a relationship. It has to do with the milk & its quality, as well as the benefits to mother & child. It also though (as we all know) has to do with emotional issues, which are different to every woman, to every child, & to every family. It also has to do with various cultural issues. I suppose what I'm saying is, I think Piglet- even though I understand what she said can be very hurtful- is entitled to voice her opinion- even a negative one- because it invites debate on a topic that many people wonder about, have thoughts about, have ambivalence about etc.

Second; many mothers talk about us being mammals, and breasts being for feeding. While that's true- we are not just mammals. In human society (unlike animals) there is the incest taboo. Unlike animals (who breed with their children) human beings do not breed with their children. This rule is particular to human beings. There is also the awareness of sexuality in children- including infantile sexuality / or sensuality. Finally, while breasts are for feeding, they are- for many women- also a source of sexual pleasure in their relations to their partner / husband. We are not merely 'conditioned' to see breasts as sexual (although that's certainly part of the picture). Breasts ARE sexual, not in a topless-model kind of way, but as a normal part of adult sexuality.

As I've written before (and I'd love to discuss this further but got no response) for me bf has surprisingly non-sexual, i.e. my breasts have acquired a completely new, wonderful role, that of feeding. I'm sure this continues to be the case with those who bf to natural term. But, there needs to be- in my opinion- awareness of the complexity that exists around these issues. BF, as I see it, as any other part of parenthood, is about knowing when to be close, and also knowing when to be separate. This is such an individual process for each mother-child couple, I would never pass any judgment whatsoever to any woman who makes any kind of choice: the choice to ff; the choice to bf for a short time; the choice to mix-feed; or the choice to bf longer, to natural term. I'm just saying- and I suppose, inviting discussion, because these issues are so very interesting to me- that in order to support bf more successfuly, we need to be aware of all these complexities which are part of the picture, & not just to simplify things by saying 'we are mammals; this is what mammals do; breasts are not sexual' etc.

Hope some (or all) of this makes sense. Recently I've been extremely emotional about my own breastfeeding relationship to my boy, so excuse the fact that this has become a bit of an essay, I hope some of my thoughts & ideas have come across as I've meant them to.

Maria - when have I ever suggested that piglet not express an opinion? An opinion on what 'feels' right for her, and what she thinks should right for others....I have pointed out that if she sticks to opinion, no one minds. She based her 'facts' on what is right on mere opinion, and this gets up people's noses.

No one sensible - least of all me, as you kindly acknowledge - thinks that bf is only about getting nutrients into a baby. Of course it is a culturally, psychologically, socially and emotionally-mediated behaviour.

This is why when people raise issues of nutritional benefit after x months, or suggest the mother could express into a cup for a toddler, they show they are spectacularly missing the point - and one way of arguing back against this is to point up how daft it is to focus on a nutrition argument, as there is no way (that I know of ) that the breasts hear the strains of 'Happy Birthday' (harpsi's faux-naive suggestion ) and switch their nutrition off!

FWIW Maria, I agree with you with regard to the sexual portrayal of breasts inhibiting long term breastfeeding. I think your previous post on this thread was very eloquently expressed.

I know what you mean about the new role for the breasts. To be honest, I don't think you really think about it much before it happens to you. Breasts are so much in the media, in glossy photos (and especially over here on tv in the news in the summer when they show people on the beach every day) shown in a sexual light, that it is actually quite hard to dissociate them from that. When you actually have your first baby and try to feed, that's the time you really start thinking about what breasts are really for.

Actually I found it quite funny that at first my dh was almost afraid to touch my breasts once I had started breastfeeding. He said he was scared of contaminating them with his germs which would then pass onto the baby! He said quite seriously that even a thorough scrub under the shower might leave some residue. I said "What about my germs?" he hadn't thought of that.

TikTok, no no, you misunderstood. I never said YOU said Piglet shouldn't express an opinion. Really sorry if this was implied by what I wrote. I also found her initial comments hurtful, btw. But its great that they led to an interesting debate, that's all I'm saying.

But maybe people are- exactly- not missing the point, when suggesting cups etc. Maybe their implicit point is that bf (at any age, even with a newborn) hits some nerve, for some people, and makes them uncomfortable. Maybe that's something we should discuss & not just write it off as lack of education, or lack of insight, or lack of sensitivity. After all, why would someone suggest a cup with breastmilk, if it weren't exactly the breasts & their sexuality they were uncomfortable with? All these are subjects to be discussed, I think, & thought about, not written off as mere prejudice as often happens. (And you know, I think, that I'm saying this as someone who has suffered from people's hurtful / ignorant comments quite a few times... but what has helped me is to accept that some people do feel uncomfortable with certain aspects of bf- especially those who haven't bf themselves-, as perhaps they assume that breasts carry on being as 'sexual' as they were before bf). IYSWIM.

Hope this makes sense!

I have just realised that I got carried away with the typing there - my post actually has nothing to do with Nell McAndrew or extended breastfeeding. Sorry!

Alexpolismum: I agree with all that you say

One point though. I think that breasts are not just seen as sexual (because of those vulgar media portrayals that, of course, we all hate). I think breasts are in fact sexual. And that's part of the interesting bf relationship, that we all, as sexual women, have to re-negotiate the role of our breasts. They acquire a kind of dual-function, if you see what I mean. And it's not such a simple thing as saying 'its merely conditioning'. It has to be negotiated by each woman on her own terms.

You are right, I think, to say that breasts are sexual. Now, whether this is as a result of conditioning, or it is just that way naturally, I cannot say. However, I'm not sure if it is a case of renegotiating their role, or rather expanding their role to include feeding.

Just to add to my previous post - speaking from my own experience, I don't feel that the sexual role of my breasts has changed at all (other than at first when I couldn't contemplate sex at all anyway). I do think, though, that this sexual perception makes it more difficult for some women to breastfeed or accept breastfeeding, and it certainly affects breastfeeding in public.

Having said that, I once breastfed in the Greek Orthodox church and the priest didn't bat an eyelid. I'm not sure he realised what I was doing, though!

Well why not is all I can say, if she wants to continue thats fine.

I applaud anyone who does continue, me personally I always said I would stop at 12 months but seems like my body decided for me anyway. Never really understood why but I guess it was one of those things.
No one should shy away from BF once when I fed my baby in Morisons Cafe in a nice quiet corner I still found I had a complaint against me for doing it. But it blew up in her face as I got a free pot of tea.

I had a friend who breastfed her nearly 3 year old and 2yr old she was expecting again so I jokenly (sp) asked if she was going to grow a 3rd breast..lol..

OK, Maria, happy you were not directing the comment at me

Many body parts have dual and triple roles - they can be used sexually, functionally, as part of an aesthetic (prob overlaps with sexually).

Take the lips, for instance, which check all those boxes. Or the hands. We cope with that just fine, and we don't expect women to wear gloves or a mouth-cover in public, or not to use their hands or lips in front of others.

In fact, any body part can become eroticised and de-eroticised, with the influence of culture or because of individual sexual preference or fetish.

Fear of the erotic potential of all (female) body parts may lead to strictures which demand women cover their whole bodies, as we know, except when indoors with other females. The demand that women cover up, or refrain from breastfeeding in front of others, lest others become uncomfortable, is actually on the same spectrum (IMO).

True Tiktok (about other body parts having many roles). The vagina also comes to mind as THE most classic example. That's where babies comes out from. And that's also how we have sex.

And yes you're right, there is a problem with the sexuality of female bodies. Which is I suppose part of why bf makes some people uncomfortable.

(What I meant to say by that, is not that bf is sexual, the same way as giving birth is not sexual. It's just that bf reminds many people of the other role the breasts do have).

(or maybe, bf & giving birth ARE sexual / sensual if we are to see sexuality in a much wider sense...)

I promise: no more additions from me

having been stared at by three different men as i breastfed my [very small] 9 month old in a M&S cafe today and been sniggered at by two boys i really despair about breastfeeding in public ever again.

no skin on display at all but that doesn't stop them.

ruty you will have also had many longing looks from women whose children are grown up. You probably just didn't notice! There will also have been lots of people who will have glanced your way and not given it a second thought. Please don't let one bad experience put you off

Don't take any notice Ruty. I never did if mine were hungry I found a suitable place and fed them.

I was told once my a lady I should feed them in the toilets, can you believe that.

BY a lady

It's so sad ruty isn't it when that happens. Sad & infuriating at the same time...

STealth is right though Ruty, about the longing looks from women whose children are grown up... I'm sure I'll definitely miss bf SO much when it ends.

i know you have to develop a thick skin but it is very odd, general public attitudes to breastfeeding in this country, even babies. I blame it on The Sun, page 3.