"Breast-feeding Militia" or "Bottle-feeding Defensive"?

[CalaLilly]

I have been struck by a conversation on another forum I visit that there seems to often be very polarised views on these methods of feeding and that people often (though obviously not always) join a camp. From the safety of each camp it's easy to be patronising or insulting about the other camp for example you can say "Breast feeding is repulsiive and really shouldn't be done in public" or "bottle-feeding mothers are selfish and haven't done the best they could for their baby".

The thing that makes me most sad is that it seems near impossible to see the middle ground and to unite together as "mums", resigned to the fact that motherhood is tough and the nutrition aspect is a challenging part of that. I personally love the Baby Friendly Program but I think that, in addition to many benefits, it has served to pronounce this split.

Have others noticed this division? How can we unite... if indeed we should unite? How can we provide robust education on why BF is so great and also good support for Mum's trying it without making Mum's feel pressurised or a failure if they bottle feed?

also, re the "tinned crap" comments (which I agree are deeply unhelpful) this is often nuch more a reflection of hostilty towards the formula company for their policies in the 3rd world or whatever - it is not meant as hostility towards ffers, but it does come across as that.

BTW is it just me, or does anyone else find the term Breast-feeding Nazi slightly snort-worthy? I always picture Adolf Hitler with a pair of huge engorged man-boobs

I also don't care how someone CHOOSES to feed their baby.

What I do care about are women who choose to breastfeed, start breastfeeding, run into a few problems (or sometones hardly any poblems at all), seek help from HCPs, get no help or bad advice, and end up FF-ing, when it wasn't really what they wanted, feeling like their bodies can't do what they're supposed to.

THAT is what makes me angry.

than you SoH, your posts often make me laugh and smile, in a good way

there is similar polarisation in VBAC v elective c.s threads

where both sides are coming at it from ' i had such a fabulous empowering experience in my VBAC/ elective c.s , that i would urge anyone else to do the same, and feel as good as i did'

when there are strong feelings, and emotions and passion, then there will be strong , robust opinions that spill into rudeness

but i really still think only a tiny proportion is simply rudeness/ nastiness for the sake of it

it does exist, but i think the concentration should be on the positive support and encouragement

The majority of people feel like you SoupDragon - they don't care. They don't think it really makes any difference in the short or the long term.

I care about this subject because I feel that babies are the weakest and most vulnerable sector of society. If the vast majority of babies over a few weeks old in the UK are being deprived of something that is important for their health and welfare in the short and long term, and there are vested economic incentives in continuing and deepening this state of affairs then I think those of us who know and care ought to stand up and be counted. Babies can't do it for themselves. They need us to act as advocates for them. So do the most educationally and socially disadvantaged women in the UK, who are also those least likely to breastfeed.

I wonder how we separate the emotional from the factual. We can't which is a good thing in many ways, but especially on an internet forum, things can be misinterpreted and so the war continues.

I know that if it were cs verus natural birth instead of bf versus ff, it would be very different for me. Similar issues involved. Two means to an end, one natural, one artificial, both complicated by physical ability, support, luck, emotional wellbeing etc. I know that my own personal experience of childbirth clouds my reading of the debate over it. I can objectively see the post listing and enthusing about natural labour. I can also emotionally feel the sharpness of the pain of failure between the lines of the happy birth story. I know that the pain and inferred slur on artificial birth comes from within me and from my own experience. I cannot separate from my own experience in this case and remind myself when reading bf/ff threads that there is a person and an emotion behind everything written. Ergo, it will never be easy to find the middle ground. I try to be mindful of this whenever the debate comes round again.

aww, thanks lulu.

And ignore my last post, lulu said it better re vbacs/cs. Great minds, one of them waffly and obsolete.

chillybangbang, am nodding at your posts btw.

"i think the concentration should be on the positive support and encouragement"

but even then, does that really solve the issue? The person telling Hedgewitch that "second babies are different" certainly intended positive support and encouragement but Hedgewitch felt they were criticising her judgement.

It's become so thorny that you can't say anything - not even report your own experience of having 2 different babies - without risking offence.

I don't think chilly would use the words 'wrong/stupid' or talk about 'deprivation' when trying to support somebody face to face or when addressing someone in particular on here. Herein lies the issue. Debating and discussing on a public forum is different to levelling a tailored comment on an individual experience. The debate cannot be divorced from the experience. It's heartbreakingly difficult.

It's interesting in a way that there is a similar issue at stake here to the SIDS/room-sharing/back-sleeping issue. Most people know what is best for a baby according to research, but for complex reasons people choose to make different decisions.

However people on the "when was baby in their own room" threads are more willing to stand up and say "yes I put my own feelings/practicalities/whatever before the scientific research" and yet feelings don't run nearly as high - even though you could argue that a baby at risk from SIDS risks death (albeit a small risk) whereas a baby on formula runs no such risk.

I wonder why we get so much more provoked over bf/ff and yet are able to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of room sharing more clinically?

chilly, so is that something that needs to be addressed with each individual mother, or at a higher level by getting more people breastfeeding through normalising it? I don't know. I suppose it does need to be brought up with each woman, as there are women who bf their second and are then angry that they didn't get to do that with their first, because they didn't think it was for them.
I was having a think about this, and IMO what needs to happen is:

• MUCH better training for MWs, HVs, GPs and paeds so that they can provide support to the women who stop bf earlier than they want to
• Encouraging bf in public to normalise it, maybe getting some large organisations on board, M&S, restaurants etc to say they fully support and encourage it.
• Promoting breastfeeding in the media

Then I think this issue around ffers feeling stigmatised would resolve itself, as they shouldn't be, of course. Some women will always choose to ff, which is completely their choice, and some women unfortunately will genuinely struggle and stop before they wanted to. Hopefully we can make that proprtion as small as possible, and if they do need to ff then there really was no other option. As for women who choose to ff, that number would go down if the reasons weren't "never seen anyone do it", "my sister/friend tried but found it really hard", "I'm not getting my boobs out in public!". The ones that are left would probably be the ones who, not influenced by an anti bf culture would choose to ff anyway, which is completely their choice.

"Yes and that percentage need to stop it, because even if they're in the minority, FF'ers are going to pick up every comment on 'tinned crap' 'uneducated' 'feeding your baby artificial shit' etc... and each one is another black mark against the 'breastfeeding advocates'

I lurk and read on here a lot and im afraid the comments above are horribly prevalent on mumsnet. "

they are NOT 'horribly prevalent' on here, hedgewitch, that is an untruth. your hysterical reaction (and i am using the word advisedly, i know your womb is v busy right now ) to this issue is not helping and never will in a million years.

or mum2b shouldn't ever go on a website?

i've only ever seen one thread in nearly three years that discussed formula as 'shit'. it was moondog's and related to an article in the environmentalist. the thread ran to THOUSANDS of posts and imo (cos it was one of the first threads i got stuck in on) really started a sea change of the way ffers are spoken to on here.

oh, i judge you for it. everyone judges everyone, particularly on a web forum. we'd be lost without our judging on here.

i will send you two copies of my adjudication, in triplicate. please sign and return to Mrs Judgey Pants, Judgeland.

The thing is, colostrum and breast milk is perfectly tailored for the human infant and formula can only ever be an imitation.

If someone has made the decision to formula feed in the full knowledge of that, fine. If people want to BF and can't or don't get adequate support then of course they deserve sympathy.

But there is no point trying to pretend that choosing not to breastfeed isn't depriving the baby of the perfect nutrition, because it is. That "deprivation" may or may not have long term consequences for the individual baby (and it is of course impossible to tell what would have been the outcome if they had been BF) but that is besides the point. Breast actually is best.

Sorry if that truth upsets you.

That's funny Aitch as I was judging you because you seem to change names every time you post! I can't keep up

you BITCH.

(that looked a bit bald,did'n't it?)

it is impossible to simply present facts to try to avoid debate and upset

the fact is that formula and breastmilk are different

and that will upset people who have not made an informed decision to formula feed

you can;t remove something as emotive as infant feeding from debate and emotion