should BF still hurt at almost 6 weeks ?

[mibbes]

we had a rocky start to BF but I expressed and DS finally took to the breast at 10 days old. However, the latch is still seriously toe-curling and he is nearly 6 weeks old - it causes me to yelp or swear out loud. I am now experiencing pain throughout the feed on my bad side (seems to be far less milk on the right side). I have had a few 'white nipple' episodes where it feels like razorblades are being dragged across nipples - agony . This comes and goes. DS doesn't seem to move his head from side to side when he latches any more and his mouth doesn't seem to open as wide - could this be why it hurts so much ? any advice for fixing this as not sure I can continue, am dreading each feed

Lisa - found your blog really interesting. Totally agree with Turniphead that the NCT classes have far too much on labour and not nearly enough about breastfeeding - obviously you wouldn't want to put people off but some discussion of the potential problems would have been a lot more beneficial than practicing latch with a plastic doll adn being urged to buy Lansinoh...

Pain for me got worse again but it may be because I got slack with the thrush treatment cream because I started whacking it on all the time again and it's improved again. Also, delighted to have just had DD weighed and she's right on her line so despite all the problems, at least she's getting her fair share!

Ladies, it is so good to hear familiar opinions. I also found NCT class put the emphasis on why you should BF and how 'natural' it is as opposed to the potential problems and what to do about them.

After yesterday's better day the night feeds were torture so was in floods of tears last night and then this morning wrangling with myself about whether to just give in to the pain - DP told me last night that enough was enough and I wasn't enjoying my baby's first weeks so I should stop . So today I gave my right side a break and used formula. It seems to have helped as I just successfully fed from the right and after the initial patch pain it was ok. This is such a rollercoaster ! I am off to see GP tomorrow to demand meds for DS so that we can get rid of this thrush once and for all. Currently have burning in my right nipple so it is still here . I reckon that it got better when I used the sheilds then when I stopped it came back (probably got transferred back to me from DS when the shield was not protecting the nipple).

Kiwi great news that your DD is getting plenty despite your pain. My DS is putting on loads of weight too so am not concerned about him, more concerned about my sanity !

Mama brilliant that things are improvng so much - gives me hope . Hurray for one dry nipple and LOL at lopsidedness ! Could you try nipple sheilds for a few feeds to allow the crack to heal ? I found they helped as a short term measure.

Turnip do you feed from both sides at each feed ? That is supposed to increase supply.

Hi Mibbes glad you got some bit of a break. Yes, i do feed from both sides. I actually don't know if I have supply problems - its kinda physchosomatic (sp) with me due to previous bf problems with my elder two. Well done you for perservering - but do what you have to do to get through.

DC3 has been gaining steadily (she lost over 10% of birthweight by Day 3 - and I can't be blamed for that, as my milk wasn't even in by then...!). She is now 20 days and is only 50 grammes off birthweight and settled between feeds, lots of poos/wees....but I am still paranoid about getting the "full" feeling in my breasts, taking fenugreek and milk thistle.

Best wishes to all with pain. I shouldn't really be on this thread - but intersted in Liza's research and what you are all going through.

KiwiPanda and MamacitaGordita - thanks for positive feedback

Hello fellow mothers of razor-palated children...
Mibbles glad you got a 'break' yesterday. Defo get Nystan oral suspension for the wee one. No point treating just one of you.

I have considered nipple shields as this crack is so persistent. I guess I'm just hoping he'll grow a bit and suddenly change his latch, but perhaps we've got into bad habits on that side. I have now got rid of all my pillows and I actually think it is helping. I'm going to try lying him down on a bed and feeding him from above, i.e. dangling boob into his mouth (like baby bird!!!) just for a change of position. He doesn't like rugby very much and I need a change to give this crack at least a chance of healing. However I am heading out for a wander in the town so can't see myself dangling boob over DS in coffee shop. I know Scotland has laws to protect bf mothers in public but I might be pushing it at that!!! lol

Mibbles, Kiwi and everyone I think we've done pretty well to keep going this far. All the babas have had weeks of bf and will benefit from that. I do think there has to be a balance though and you do want to enjoy your baby, not spend every hour stressing about pain... sigh... blimey this parenthood lark is tricky eh?!!!
x

I was trying to cheer myself up last night with the thought that DD is now a month old, so I've managed one of the six that the WHO recommends...!! though if it continues to be this painful for the next five months I think I will lose my mind...

I might try that dangle from above position too! Will be entertaining to watch, if nothign else....

arrghh went to GP and got a man this time - he seemed to doubt that I have thrush (even though it sounds exaclty like several women at the BF support group who have had the same. The last GP thought it sounded like thrush as did 2 HVs..). He has told me to take swabs of both me and DS and hand them in tomorrow and I'll get results on Fri !!!! Does he have no idea ? I am now facing 3 more days of pain before I even know what it is never mind get treated .

On the bright side, other than the post-feed razor blade pain, the actual pain during the feed is lessening. The latch still hurts but only for 30 seconds or so. If I could get rid of this thrush then I'm sure I'd be far happier with the feeding.

Also, I did my first public feed at the BF class. Admittedly a very supportive environment but stil feels good to have done it outside the house .

mibbes well done you on the public b'fing. Hope you get some help on the thrush. Thinking of you and still full of admiration for you and the others with the "razor-palated" babes. You all rock!

Oh Mibbles that is really truly awful for you. God totally enough to make me crumble. Can you see another GP? I am sure I read on Kellmom some research suggestiong taking swabs is unreliable... argh. In the meantime you could try the natural stuff (all detailed on Kellymom) like making sure you change pads as soon as they're damp, washing bras every day at 60, don't share towels (not that our towels touch our boobs!), and you can take acidophilus capsules, and reduce yeasty things like bread etc. and sugar. Basically be a monk.

It sounds like your latch is improving though so once the thrush is banished the light at the end of the tunnel will be visible!!

Kiwi my dangly feed worked really well- good for my arm and leg muscles too! But your wee one is younger than miniMamacita so you might find he or she is flooded by your let-down plus gravity! miniMamacita would not have coped with the torrent at 4 weeks!

mibbes I'd go back and see another GP if you can. The kellymom site has some wonderful links about thrush here and will give you documentation show to the GP if you need it. Blimmin eck - I can't believe they are leaving you in pain when treatment could easily rule it out one way or the other. I read as well that swabs can be unreliable.

I've been treating mine with Nystatin tablets and the oral Nystatin drops for bubs mouth but it's not doing much. One of the links from the kellymom website says it's not as effective as other treatments but I wanted to start with it first. The Daktarin gel (miconazole) for baby's mouth seems better though - I've had a bit of relief for a short while with using that but it's coming back again, so I'm going back to the GP today to get some Fluconazole tablets. I think you should go straight for the Fluconazole tablets, as you've had this problem for a while now. Don't let them fob you off, they're probably just doing it because it's an expensive treatment and it will cost them (I believe that's how the system works over there - all prescriptions cost the same and the GP's surgery has to pay the difference?) Your health is most important though of course, so if both 2HV's and the other doc thought you had thrush then you've got good reason to demand treatment. Don't wait till Friday! xx

Mibbes I'm totally horrified at your experience with the GP. I agree with Bisou you should get back there asap if you can. If you have the time/inclination (and I appreciate you may not!) it's worth complaining. If the government want people to bf this is not how to do it.

Glad to hear about other improvement though - it sounds like you've crossed the bridge!

Thanks ladies. Bizzarely the pain is not as bas post-feed so I'm going to wait until Fri and if they say it is nothing then I'm going back to original GP armed with kellymom docs that say swabs are pants and tell her I need to be treated. With both GPs I managed to hold back the tears but am now wondering that perhaps if I just let go and blubbed they'd have understood better how bad this is and how much it means to me to BF.
Oh and quality statement from bloke GP yesterday "oh well you've managed to feed him for a few weeks, it ual;t be the end of the world of you had to igve up" - I was astounded !!! Who gives him the right to decide when I stop and it actually would be the end of my world if I had to stop as it was such a struggle to get to this point I'm not about to throw the towel in just because he is prolonging my agony with stupid swabs

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

WHAT?! Cannot believe that GP. What an arse. No this is too terrible. I think a complaint would definately be justified here. Like LizaJ says, way to encourage bf. Thank goodness you clearly have a will of steel or that'd be enough to tip you over the edge!

Print off the thrush leaflet from the Breastfeeding Network website (bear in mind Daktarin gel is now not recommended due to hypothetical choking risk and the leaflet hasn't been updated yet) and say to your GP, 'this is the recommended treatment. Here is the research. I want to bf. But thrush is agony. At present I cannot think beyond the next feed. etc.' and let rip with the tears!! Do you have a sympathetic community midwife you could see- I know you're out of their remit now time-wise but it was my community mw who spoke to the GP in a no-nonsense sort of way and got me the full works treatment-wise.

Argh my heart goes out to you. when I had to wait for a day it was horrid- psychologically too, just wanting to get started with treatment. Hang in there!

You are right about the Daktarin mama, supposedly there were problems with the gel being administered incorrectly, as women were accidentally giving the baby the gel in the spoon rather than using the spoon just as a means of measuring how much to use and applying to the inside of the mouth with a finger - there is more here on this website too:

"Note: In May 2006, Janssen-Cilag (the manufacturers of Daktarin gel) issued an alert advising pharmacists not to supply Daktarin (miconozole) oral gel for use in infants under 6 months of age. This alert originates from concerns regarding the administration of the gel, not the medication itself. Health care providers must ensure, when recommending this product, that the client understands how to apply the product safely (see below).

If the client is unsure about application or is unable to purchase the product from her pharmacy, she can be advised to try another pharmacy or to use Nilstat oral drops (see below). However, it should be noted that the drops are not as effective for oral thrush in infants as the gel."

I didn't make it to the doctor today - have got that as a priority for tomorrow. These itchy boobs are sooooo frustrating!

Hi there

You poor thing. I'm a GP and mudt admit that breastfeeding isn't taught very well at med school and a lot of Gps are ill informed. i haven't read through your symptoms properly, just skimmed thread - i will do when i get a minute but just some points

have you seen a breastfeeding counselllor face to face to assess attachment?? eg baby cafe or nct.

If so and attachment is fine then it is likely you have thrush or raynauds

have a look at these link to see if you think your synptoms fit eith thrush - you don't need all the symptoms

this is a gp approved website

scroll down to breastfeeidng bit, interesting info about using fluconazole

about raynauds

this is a link for patients very clealry say mother and baby should be treated together

www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/thrush.html

I think you should get your attachment checked, maybe read these and print out most useful, along with breastfeeding network sheet. then drop them off at your GPs tomorrow with a note asking him/her to read before the appointment (take copies with you in case they get lost) - hope you are seeing the first Gp who seemed more sympathetic. you might suggest your Gp has a little bit of reading to do before he/she suggests you stop - which is against current NICE guidelines - also see that pulse article.
good luck!

Also a nipple swab is appalling bad at picking up thrush - it really is a clinical diagnosis, but culturing breast milk is more sensitive.

My heart goes out to you - I had nipple thrush, and had two course of fluconazole before it went, along with treating ds with daktarin. i also had a degree of vasospasm which interestingly got better on its own. its horrific. still feeding at 16 mo though.

sorry about typos will read thread properly soon

appallingly bad - not going to even bother correct all the other typos!

have you put out for tiktok she is a Bf counsellor?

but you should try to see someone face to face

Bisou hope the itchy boobs calm down. I have learned so much about thrush, I thought it was just a rare slightly inconvenient thing but...!

Luvaduck good to get a GP POV and links. My sister is an FY1 and the bf training she got at uni was very sketchy and basic! Of course you have rather a lot to get through (!)but at GP level it's so important esp in terms of long term health promotion...

mibbles and kiwi hope the feeds are improving. My right nip crack seems to be a permenant feature- I can feed with it now (with thrush it was intitial agony then painful, now it's initial pain then discomfort) but not sure how long I should put up with it... I keep trying every position/trick in the book but cannot do every feed from that side dangling above the wee one. He's starting to give me funny looks I swear ('what the blazes is she doing now' ) I'm going to my bf support group tomorrow. I think I am my bfc's biggest challenge yet! I'll see what she says about nipple shields. I have just had in ingrained so deeply that they are the devil's work... lol

Hey fellow sufferers! I've just been back to the GP after seemed to get worse again and luckily for me had a far better experience - lovely doctor who immediately prescribed flu-whatsit (which I can never remember the name of correctly) so touch wood that might make a difference... Was all prepared to have to fight her for it so it was nice that she was so sympathetic - only wish yours was the same mibbes

MamacitaGordita I had major cracks and in the end they just healed themselves, although interestingly they didn't close up, but new skin grew over the top, changing the shape of my nipples. I think part of my problem might have been poor skin protractibility. Anyway, as soon as that happened it was a piece of cake. I had to feed in some odd positions for a while, but can do it however I want now without even thinking (never thought I'd see the day!)

2 midwives recommended shields. They didn't work for me (I ended up using shells), but I know they have done for several of my friends. Anyway, I found out that the NHS policy of not recommending them is based on pretty old research, and that quite a few studies support their use (nipple shields research summary).

I think tiktok is more than a breastfeeding counsellor, she has degree level training in breastfeeding.
There are quite a few of us that have diploma level training (I am one of them)

If you think there is the possibility of thrush please take the BfN leaflet with you to a doctor, trying to discover if it is thrush by growing or culturing a sample is pretty pointless when the treatment is so simple!

Have you seen a BFC yet?

Interesting LizaJ because I was inspecting the chasm crack this morning and I think it may be healing from the base upwards (not closiing up along the sides IYSWIM)... your experience gives me hope! lol Thanks for the research on shields, I'll give that a read ASAP.
x

sorry the question mark was to whether she had a put a call out to her - not to question her training!

Hello everyone, hope you don't mind me jumping in . Just to let you know that there is hope somewhere down the line [throwing a party emoticon]. My DD is 8 weeks and I've had 4 whole pain-free breastfeeding days since Sunday . I got breast thrush when she was a week old but didn't know what it was, stopped feeding quite so much on one side cos it hurt so much, then got mastitis (which I had no idea existed either) after recovering from the mastitis with antibiotics the thrush got worse and spread to the other boob and DD's bum . I had thrush from week 2 until week 7, I saw 5 different GPs, 2 didn't even believe breast thrush existed. I got given two different creams and then 2 courses of Fluconazole and I'm finally free of the horrible stuff.
Sorry this is a pretty long post but everyone says it's worth keeping going and although I still get engorged and haven't quite sorted out the supply issues, the toe-curling, crying-every-feed, dreading-hungry-baby, thinking-breast-feeding-sucks days are (fingers crossed) no more. I did use shields for a couple of days just to get the cracks to heal in the second week, and I expressed a couple of feeds to get a rest from gnawing baby gums even though the thrush still hurt. I recommend the Medela Harmony pump btw. why do people say that boobs sort themselves out in a couple of weeks??? They don't!!
And MIBBES, don't let them fob you off. When I was given another cream to try I just wanted to cry cos I knew it wasn't going to work and the agony is just not worth it. Go back and stand your ground. This is a horrible thing to have and fluconazole really does work - the one tablet didn't for me, I needed the week long course. You don't have to put with dreading every feed just cos some stupid doctor doesn't understand the pain...

That's great to hear pbo thanks for sharing the optimism. I've just started on a double course of Fluconazole (150mg for 8 days) and even after day 1 I'm starting to feel a difference. The itch is definitely less bad today. There is hope indeed!

How are you going mibbes - have you seen the doctor again yet? xx

Hi mibbes, Kiwi, MamacitaGordita and anyone else who is going through the horrible thrush thing,

Just to give you a bit of support and hopefully some more hope too, I have had thrush and a few weeks ago were where you are now. I developed a horrible crack, for a week I had to express from one side as just couldn't bear the pain and dreaded every feed and was frequently in tears. I hardly dare say it but I think I have just about beaten it. I went to four different GPs who had four different ideas of how to treat it. In the end the Daktarin cream for me and the Daktarin gel for my little one made things so much better. (I did have a one off treatment of Fluconzale which seemed to kickstart the healing; I did think I would have to go back and demand the proper course but am just beginning to think that I may get away without it).

Bf now is almost pain free. It is such a relief.

PBO- I am so pleased to hear that you are feeling better too. I can certaintly relate to the idea of "toe-curling, crying-every-feed, dreading-hungry-baby, thinking-breast-feeding-sucks days". A great description or as the case may be.

Keep on going girls in whatever is the best way for you. Sounds like you are all coping brilliantly. I am sure you will get there.

By the way, reading the comments about the NCT, interestingly I have been asked by a BF counsellor if I would go along to an antenatal class as an example of someone who has had problems (had other issues too) and managed to keep BF. She feels it is important for the women to have a realistic view.