should BF still hurt at almost 6 weeks ?

[mibbes]

we had a rocky start to BF but I expressed and DS finally took to the breast at 10 days old. However, the latch is still seriously toe-curling and he is nearly 6 weeks old - it causes me to yelp or swear out loud. I am now experiencing pain throughout the feed on my bad side (seems to be far less milk on the right side). I have had a few 'white nipple' episodes where it feels like razorblades are being dragged across nipples - agony . This comes and goes. DS doesn't seem to move his head from side to side when he latches any more and his mouth doesn't seem to open as wide - could this be why it hurts so much ? any advice for fixing this as not sure I can continue, am dreading each feed

Just remembered - when I went to the bf clinic they gave me a leaflet to show the GP re using fluconazole as apparently not commonly prescribed; I think it is the breastfeeding and mastitis one here: www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/leaflets-and-publications.html . Also, this might be useful: www.breastfeedingcommunity.co.uk/breastfeeding-support.htm

Mama I am on my 2nd tube of Lansinoh !

I saw GP today again and mentioned the white nipple and she said that the only meds available are not to be used while BFing so useless. I felt so down afterwards as it was a freezing cold day so the pain got seriously bad .

I called La Leche League and the woman was lovely, (I managed to blub down the phone like a right idiot for 2 mins then finally pulled myself together ). She said that she'd pass me the details of a local BF leader and a lactation consultant if she can find a local one for me. She was so helpful and said to check that DS's tongue is in the right place (haven't managed to yet).

Also called NCT and got similar info from them - they are going to get a BFC to contact me but there are none local to me . Both NCT and LLL said that for thrush DS needs to be treated too - I said this to GP and she dismissed it - arrghhh !

I have also resorted to expressing from the sorest side - have been resting it for a few feeds today then expressed enough to cover the night feeds tonight so that both sides can have a break tonight - phew ! I also gave him a FF top up earlier as I was just too distraught to feed him as the pain is excruciating. Am really struggling today and just keep bursting into tears at the prospect that I may have to give up - I can't put up with all of this pain much longer

Poor Mibbes I so feel for you. Can I suggest that if it is thrush, you might want to stop using Lansinoh - I think it actually creates a seal or something and keeps those nasty candida in there. I've been using grapefruit seed extract (you can take it as solution, but also swab it on) plus the meds and there does now seem to be an improvement - it's very slow progress though. Also, is it worth printing out some of the excellent leaflets about treating thrush etc and bringing with you to doctor? Perhaps there's another one you can see who will know a bit more??

I've also found La Leche to be wonderful.

Oh mibbes, I feel for you, breastfeeding SHOUDLN'T be painful.

If the latch is fine then any pain should go within a few seconds. The nipple isn't the part that the baby really uses to make milk come out and should be right in the back of the throat, therefore pain only whilst drawing the nipple into the mouth.

It is possible that the lanisoh isn't helping, it's not common, but some women are allergic to it, I've met one lady who had terrible trouble and took a few months until she stopped using it, so for now, just try using vaseline and see if it helps at all.

I'm glad you got to see a GP who actually recognised thrush and prescribed something for it, do you have any pain in the breast or just the nipples?

I'll see if I can find a good video of the perfect latch for you.

Take a look here (I wouldn't normally reccommend a site that sells bottles etc but for a change it's a good video!

Oh Mibbles my heart goes out to you! It's just so hellish isn't it. The crack on my right nipple actually makes me feel a bit queasy to look at it's pretty big- I'm stopping the pump and just going to hand express now because I think the pump was making it worse. I don't get as much hand expressing though so that's a worry supply-wise... I started another thread about my rubbish pharmacist etc last night- DH picked up my script and came home with only a one-off dose of fluconazole for me and nothing for baby... when he questioned it the pharmacist told him all along I should have been washing my breast with hot soapy water before each feed. I was gutted and burst into floods of tears as I just wanted to start the treatment.

Saw the BFC tolday and have now got the proper treatments. So I really, really hope things start to improve- I so want to have pain-free feeds and not dread it. I would also like to wrap my towel around me after a shower as at present my nips are just TOO sore, like sunburn!!

I'm working on the latch and the left is much better... sigh...

If I'm not in pain feeding, I'm thinking about the pain and feeding, and all in all it's taken over my life! It is nice to hear others in similar situations and hopefully we'll all get there in the end. hugs to you mibbles and kiwi
x

Breastfeeding can hurt for no reason at all.

It's not thrush.
It's not down to the latch.
You are not doing anything wrong.

I breastfed my first until she was 4months and my second until he was 8 months. Each time it bloody hurt like hell! A toe-curling pain that did subside once the baby got going but when I first put them on, it was just agony. I dreaded feeding them. I had everyone check my latch. I had people telling me it was because my nipples were not dark, I had sun lamps on them at one point!

With my first the pain did go after about 8 weeks. With my second it went sooner.

But don't think that there is something wrong with you or that you are doing it wrong. One of my very first posts on Mumsnet was about this and I discovered other mums who said exactly the same.

It will go, but whether or not you want to just ride it out is up to you!

Oh, I did find that squeezing my breast kind of like a sandwich so that the baby got a good mouthful worked a little bit. Psychologically I then knew that the baby was latched on fine.

Hi mibbes & fellow sufferers.

Really sorry to hear you are still in agony after 6+ weeks. I can relate to this as I had the same experience (though not necessarily exactly the same symptoms) with DS. I remember going to the GP for my 6-week check desperately hoping that it would be thrush - I was gutted when he ruled it out but I made him take a swab anyway. It turned out not to be thrush but the problem is that you can never tell which HCPs are clued up about bf stuff and which aren't.

The problem in our case turned out to be tongue tie. You really need someone who knows their stuff to have a look at this to rule it out. With DS (and DD - also tongue tied) it was missed by the hospital paediatricians, the GP and too many midwives to count before it was finally diagnosed. Perhaps you could post on your Mumsnet local page to see if anyone can make a recommendation of a HCP who is experienced in diagnosing tongue tie. I would certainly not trust just any old midwife or GP, or even someone running a bf drop-in.

It's not easy to diagnose, but when I took DD to have hers snipped the other week the consultant showed me one of the things he used to diagnose it. He waited until DD cried and showed me a little dip in the end of the tongue where its movement was restricted. It was so subtle though in DD's case. By 6 weeks DS had a notch on the end of his tongue (still has) where the tie had restricted its growth. Not saying that if your DS doesn't have any of these it is not tongue tie - it is worth getting it checked out properly anyway, even if you have been told previously there is no tongue tie.

Whatever the underlying problem though, improvements in latch and positioning can make the pain more bearable. If you're getting more pain on one side then it's worth having a close look at the angle of the baby against your body. In my case I noticed that on the less painful side I was holding DD almost at a 45 degree angle to me (ie with bottom tucked right in almost under the armpit) and on the other side I was holding her pretty much straight across me. Changing that made a big difference. Another top tip given to me by an infant feeding specialist is instead of arranging cushions then putting the baby on, get the baby on first then slot in cushions afterwards to support your arms & baby. I was surprised how much difference this small thing made, but it's all to do with the old baby to breast, not breast to baby thing. If you do breast to baby, then you tend to end up slightly hunched over but then once the baby is feeding, you lean back ever so slightly without even realising it, which pulls the nipple away from the baby. For the same reason, it's worth seeing if resting your feet on something helps at all. I've never used a feeding pillow, but I would think the same applies - perhaps using smaller cushions/rolled up blankets/whatever placed strategically might work better than one big pillow.

Other than that, painkillers helped me during those dark times (alternating ibuprofen & paracetamol). I also used nipple shields for 3 weeks with DS - they have their own drawbacks but it was either that or give up at the time. Neither will solve the underlying problem of course, but they might buy you a little time while you're looking for the solution.

I think you're all doing brilliantly for persevering - a lot of people would have given up long ago. I really hope you find the answers soon.

Wow Poisondwarf those are some seriously good tips- thank you! Especially like the cushions one and although I KNOW I should bring him to me I really have to concentrate on it... definate food for thought, thank you x

VictorianSqualor this video is really helpful, the LLL lady was trying to explain about hard and soft palates to me yesterday. Maybe if I try the 'sandwich' and ensure as much as possible gets in there I'll have more luck..

Oh I love MN for hearing others express exactly how I feel. Mama ditto with the towel after a shower, it feels as if the towel is made from sandpaper against my nipples even though I know it is soft ! This flipping painful BF nonsense has even taken away the pleasure of a warm shower !! and I also think about it all the time, how long until the next feed, whether we'll be home in time, which side I am on etc... and so often it just reduces me to tears as I am so fearful of each feed. I really hope the meds work for you soon xx

Today I feel a bit better as got up with huge hard breasts after a night of bottles so decided to feed from the better side using a nipple shield and it wasn't too bad. I then expressed from the sorer side to allow me to have a bottle for him for later in the day . I really hope I am not messing up my suply but this is the only way I can keep going. I later fed again from the good side then an hour ago I tried the bad side with a nipple sheild and despite a sore latch the rest of the feed was not bad ! The thrush seems to have improved but am worried that DS will pass it back to me as he has not been treated and not even getitng the daktarin from my nipple now due to sheild...

Kiwi thanks for the Lansinoh tip, I'll try vaseline.

Rhubarb I was actually talking to someone this evening who said the same, she had pain for 3 months and the latch was fine. I do have very pale and sensitive skin and my nipples are very light coloured so I suspect that they are really sensitive to pain so this may be part of my problem.

Hi poison thanks for your advice. Would you mind telling me what the drawbacks with nipple sheilds are ? I was aware that they got bad press but not sure why, but like you say if it weren't for using them I'd have pulled the plug today as it had got too much for me.

Hi mibbes. Nipple shields won't do your supply any favours, as you're aware. DS had his tongue snipped at 6.5 weeks and it was another 6 weeks until I was able to build up my supply enough to stop the formula top-ups (I'd been topping up with anything up to 500ml a day so quite a lot). My low supply wasn't just due to the nipple shields though (used them from about 10 days to 4 weeks or something like that) - in fact I couldn't say with any certainty that they affected my supply at all, given that DS was unable to remove enough milk and I was giving top-ups, which would have affected my supply anyway. The other drawback is that you might have a bit of trouble getting DS back on your nipples once he's used to the nipple shields. I used the Avent ones and they were absolutely massive compared to my nipples. Having said that, it only took a day or two to get him back on fully - and you're clearly not afraid of a bit of perseverence are you?

Re the sensitive nipples thing - I thought the same but actually I think it was a red herring in my case. I've always had very sensitive nipples, although not particularly pale, and I think it did contribute to the pain for the first few days of feeding DS. But breastfeeding has definitely dulled that sensitivity, and in my case if it hurts now it's because there's something wrong. Incidentally, did you know that tongue ties more often than break of their own accord during the first year? I always wonder about those women who have painful feeds for a few weeks or months and suddenly the pain is gone, and how many of them might be undiagnosed tongue ties which have suddenly rectified themselves. Also, the baby's mouth getting bigger and better neck and overall muscle control make feeding much easier as the baby grows. Tongue tie aside, I was amazed at how different (and difficult) it was/is to feed newborn DD compared to 17 month old DS.

Well dd wasn't tongue-tied and feeding her was absolute agony. However by the time I was giving up the whole thing was much much better and I now regret giving up so soon.

ds was slightly tongue-tied, the pain was the same but it did go quicker. The tie never broke but his tongue does appear to have grown so it's no longer a problem.

Hi all fellow nipple sufferers...if you have nipples left...
Just wondering how you're doing today- kiwi how is the thrush stuff working? Mibbles any improvement? Are you finding the nipple shields a help?

I have launched into my thrush meds full steam ahead and the shooting pains are definately subsiding and I think the crack is healing- it's still seriously razor-esque upon latching and I don't know if that is because we still have a pants latch or whether it's because it's bound to hurt with a big gaping wound. The pump was defo making the crack worse so it's in its box and if I have to I hand express. Feel like a cow but oh well! Just. Want. To. Get. This. Sorted! I must say MN and this thread are such a help- thank you rhubarb and others for all your advice and support! x

I have to admit I wondered about the nippe sheilds and potentially getting DS into bad habits as they are HUGE ! Am concerned he'll not latch properly without them so am only using them sometimes. Have had to resort to a few FF as it was too much for me . However the break and use of sheilds seemed to make a difference. Having said that I did several 'natural' feeds yesterday and DS has started fussing and pulling at the breast which causes a whole new pain - arrgghhh ! Have no idea what to do, think I 'll have to put up with the pain but am now fed up of problem after problem.

The other thing that I think is contibuting to the problem is Ds's super-strong suck. When he gets a bottle you cann't get him to let go, he sucks it back in ! My SIL gave him a bottle yesterday and she was at the strength of it (she has 3 DDs so is used to babies).

Hey guys. Hmm well I think the thrush has cleared - there's no longer any pain after feed, but it's still v painful when she latches on and then the feed itself is, well I'd describe it as really uncomfortable rather than agonising but still clearly not right.

i'm beginning to wonder about her being tongue tied - is that possible? She seems to get enough to eat so maybe I'm clutching at straws... how far should she be able to stick her tongue out of her mouth, anyone know??

Mibbes I have nothing to add in terms of practical advice as you are getting some really good advice here. I just wanted to say that I am thinking of you and all you are going through and that I hope it gets much better very soon. Please take care. TH.

Turnip how lovely of yoU to pop in, I haven't been on the PN thread for a while as too preoccupied with sore boobs !

Kiwi I am in a similar position in that thrush seems to be quite a bit better and although not painfree, most feeds are more bearable (on the left at least). The latch still hurts but am starting to wonder whether the very strong suck is the problem. I have stopped using the feeding pillow and find that helps . Did my first feed out of the house today. It was a friend's house and I went in to the study for privacy but it felt good to manage without the pillow and sheilds etc.. Usually I'd have insisted we went straight home to feed so we were given a bit of freedom. Next step, feeding in a public place... think I'll wait until things settle more as still give the odd yelp ! Definitely not out of the woods yet as the last feed caused a huge red mark next to nipple so clearly a lop-sided latch and it was agony and still stings arrggh ! Will keep persevering though..

Mibbes how funny I've abandoned the feeding pillow today and found an improvement - it looks like it gives the right position but maybe not eh? Also, having dilligently avoided hot bths or t least not getting my nips wet (moist = thrush etc) I soaked in lovely hot both earlier and it was bliss.. who knows, maybe it even helped! I don't know bout you though but I do feel it's two little steps forwrd and the odd huge leap back...

Hi all - new to mumsnet but felt compelled to post on this topic! I had a zillion problems with breastfeeding and ended up with totally mangled nipples for 6 weeks despite being told my latch was fine etc. Anyway, I got so frustrated with leaflets etc given out by midwives (which didn't tell the half of it!) that I decided to start looking into scientific research (I'm a scientist by trade) and found that a lot of the advice wasn't that accurate... Will stop ranting now but am writing up results of my enquiries here if anyone is interested: thetruthaboutbreastfeeding.wordpress.com/

Wow liza your research is so interesting and helpful, thanks for posting

Hmmm... So abandon the pillow family then?! Seems to be helping you two so I may give it a go! My thrush treatment is helping and like you Kiwi I've no pains afterwards anymore and my nipples are less of a hot pink shiny colour! The left side is so much better now and I'd say is (whispers) just about pain free. But the crack on my right nipple is deep and so sore. How on earth can I have it so right on one side and obviously so wrong on the other? Weird.

I've been doing something a MNer suggested (not sure if it was on this thread or another one) and 'rotating' so one feed in 'rugby ball', next one in cradle, next reverse cradle, etc- none of the positions on the right are good latches but it spreads the soreness. If I can't get to grips with the right then I will just have to abandon ship with it and just feed from one boob. Lopsidedness be damned! I'd rather bf and be lopsided than stop, or continue in pain on one side for the sake of symmetry! I know of a couple of women who've done this and I know it's possible if not ideal.

Kiwi I think www.kellymom.com has info on tongue ties and what signs to look out for.

mibbles I can dry my left boob with a towel although the right is still a no-go zone! lol

We'll get there in the end ladies... x

liza that is really really interesting. I can recall being massively hacked off with my NCT class on the feedback afterwards that noone mentioned that b'fing could be really really hard (indeed out of a class of 6 women all really comitted to it - only 1 found it easy and 4 of us ended up mixed feeding due to problems and 1 never managed to feed at all).

It's been discussed on MN before - by b'f counsellors, the balance between truth (ie for whatever reason a lot of people find it really hard and actually quite painful, for quite a while) and going too far and putting people off. TBH, I think that the plain truth would put people off thus the NHS propaganda about it never really hurting once your latch is right etc etc. It's hard to know what would be better for people.

Out of interest did your problems just resolve by themselves, or what happened.

To the ladies in pain, I have to say I have just implemented Poison Dwarf's suggestion of having no pillow until latch and hold done and then putting one in (and it has improved my latch) (My problem is supply due to not getting latch right rather than pain).

Mibbes, glad you found it interesting. There's loads of other stuff to look into so I plan to keep going!

Turniphead, totally agree that women shouldn't be put off with tales of how terrible it will be, but if they do have problems it might help to know that lots of women have a similar experience and it's not just that they're doing it wrong.

In the end the problem just resolved itself (took about 6-8 weeks), although I did use breast shells and do some pumping to take the pressure off a bit. Oh, and then I got mastitis... (caught early, fortunately, so not too bad). Everything is fine now though! Will be putting more stuff on the blog about all these things soon.

Lisa just had a chance to visit your website and it's really interesting and great to hear familiar experiences! I think it could be a really valuable bf help to women (like a more personal and UK version of Kellymom) so keep up the good work!