How much sick is too much?? HELP!

[lollipopmother]

Hi, I'm not sure whether this is the right forum or not, but I don't know where else to ask.

My DD is 16 days old and has started crying during and/or after every feed (she is BF), she arches her back a lot and will only be comforted if she is on my shoulder face down, with her legs dangling. Whenever I try and wind her nothing ever comes up, I think I've got three burps out of her since she was born. When it gets to about 7pm she starts screaming, and on the whole, won't stop until gone 10pm, she's clearly in quite considerable pain Two days ago about 30mins after a feed she threw up a huge amount. I know that people will say 'it's an optical illusion, it wasn't really that much', but actually it was, it soaked right the way through my duvet, sheets and on to the matress, and there was still a big puddle of it. Last night about an 3/4 hour after a feed she threw up, and again it was loads, and it also came out of her nose! The puddle was as big as two of my hands, it really wasn't just a dribble, and she was covered in it - and it was lumpy.

So, I don't think this is normal, although I am a first time mum so obviously I don't know what I'm doing. Please can anyone tell me whether this amount of sick is normal, or whether I should be worried?

I initially thought that because of the regular screaming from 7pm that she has colic, but I have been giving Infacol for the last couple of days but I don't think it's doing anything. With the sick, could it be reflux?

Please help, I don't want my baby to be in pain if there is something I could be doing for her.

Hi - I don't know whether this could be reflux or not - my youngest had reflux, and would bring up every single feed, and was also unhappy whilst feeding, or when laid down as this made it worse - he was on and off the breast, fidgety, pulling faces etc - my eldest who didn't would just occassionally be sick very much like you've descirbed - the lumpiness is just where she had started to digest the milk before bringing it up. The sick could also be caused by trapped wind (colic) finally making it's way up.
It does sounds a lot like colic to me - maybe you could try smaller feeds with a break in between, and the regular screaming in the evening is v v common - we spent hours with both of ours pacing the room, rocking etc etc every evening until they suddenly grow out of it.

Lollipop - dd was a bit like this. We took her to the OOH doctors actually one night at 10pm, as we were so sure there was something wrong with her. And the lady on the other end of the phone at NHS Direct did too! I'll never forget the doctor's words, 'There is no medical explanation for the crying'. Great. We spent hours pacing the floor with her. She didn't have the vomiting to that extent, but she was sick after most of her feeds, and Infacol didn't make any difference to her either. We just had to wait until it passed. I remember the winding well, the feelings of elation when she burped!

Get the reflex checked out though. But as katylou says, it sounds like typical colic.

Could it be a dairy intolerance?

I BF both of mine and they were very sick/fussy/colicky until someone suggested I cut dairy out of my diet.

The proteins in dairy that can upset some babies pass into breast milk.

It could be worth cutting dairy out of your diet for a while to see if that makes a difference. Normally if it is going to help you will see a difference after a few days. However it takes around three weeks to clear all dairy out of your system so you would really have to try it for at least this long to do it properly.

Ok thanks ladies, I am just so desperate to work out what it is that I think I'm working myself up. I don't mind at all when she's screaming, but I know it's really getting my DP down as she starts just as he gets home from a long day of work, and I hate to see him down as much as I hate to see her in pain.

With the winding - how long should I be trying for? I pat and rub her back for 5mins after each feed, should I be trying for longer?

Beachcomber - Oh God, dairy? I have cereal every morning with milk, and I use the odd bit of Flora, I suppose it won't kill me by any stretch to cut it out! I shall give it a try, thanks for the tip.

You could try winding part way through a feed. Something that helped my ds was having a dummy straight after a feed - seemed to help with the pain somehow, though he was still just as sick.

One thing I used to do if I couldn't get a burp up, was put her in her moses basket, then pick her back up. The motion sometimes helped to dislodge trapped wind.

FWIW - I used to wind for a max of ten mins (I respond to deadlines ), and if she hadn't burped, I'd give up.

My DS has been diagnosed with reflux and is sick constantly: rivers of it after every feed. If he's asleed and is not sick for a while, he often appears to be in pain and then brings up a lot of clear sick with bits in it. He's also had it coming out of his nose and mouth and soaks bedding, me, himself, through his bibs and everything a number of times daily. It is really alarming. Thankfully, he is not five months and it is easing, but if your DD is taking most of her feeds without throwing it back up it is less likely to be a reflux problem. If it is reflux, however, it is sometimes better to keep them very still after feeding so that milk has a chance to digest. The clear sick with milk bits in it is undigested milk and is probably only your DD getting rid of what the body doesn't need at that time. Hopefully it'll clear up soon. If it helps at all, boys are more likely to get reflux than girls for some reason.

You are welcome. I hope something works for you and your baby. I'll keep an eye on this thread in case you have any questions about it. Having been through this twice I've come to know quite a lot about it.

If you do want to try cutting dairy out you have to be really strict. No cheese, yoghurts, cream, etc.

You can out rice milk or oat milk on cereal. Try to avoid soya products as many kids who react to dairy also react to soya.

Good luck.

Wind in the middle of the feed as well. It can take more than 5 mins, yes. My DS1 vomited regularly as you describe - he was breastfed and grew from the 50th centile at birth to the 91st by 6 months, so it didn't seem to do much harm. Bloody messy though, and I did a lot of washing!!

Don't worry

My dd2 was a puker. It was awful and it was large volumes as you described. I got a bit paranoid and saw a paediatrician in the end and was told it was nothing. If they puke up 2 whole meals in a row then you should go to hospital because they can't keep their electrolytes balanced in that situation.

Ultimately we just did loads of laundry (including changing all the bedding in the middle of the night toooo many times). Eventually it slowed down and stopped. Now have ds3 who pukes occasionally like any baby and it is sooooo much easier. I feel for you.

As regards the screaming in the evenings we found with hindsight that our dd1 had got overtired without us realising. Even thinking about putting her down for a sleep come afternoon was an anathema because she was already wide eyed in a startled "what is all this about?" way. This really works though. It sorted her out and has worked for our other 2:

Once she is up in the morning (you have to start at the beginning of a new day for it to work) start watching for a yawn after 1 1/2 hours (this may take a while before 1st yawn or maybe earlier if she's as tired as you are). After the first yawn take her into a quiet dark room and cuddle her for 5 mins. Then put her to bed. Stay with her in the dark but don't pick her up - just put your hand on her tummy. She'll be asleep before you know it. When she wakes up note the time and repeat. It'll take a while to see how long she can stay up for but once you've learnt how long they are usually consistent. My dc3 is currently only managing 1hour 5 mins at 8weeks!

Aim to get her to bed for the night at 6-7pm.

I know you're thinking but she won't go to sleep - that's what I thought.

Give it a go - what have you got to lose?

Oh it's definitely not after every feed Polaris and KatyLou, so hopefully it's not reflux, it sounds horrible.

I think I will try and wind for longer then, I get disheartened because nothing ever comes up, and normally she's asleep by the end of the 5mins as well, unless it's 'screaming hour', in which case nothing will get her to stop!

Are there other products other than Infacol? I find that it makes her cry as soon as I put it in her mouth, then she spits most of it out and what is left stops her from getting a good latch as it's so slippery, which means she fusses a load more than usual. Arggh, I really did for some unknown reason think that I would find BF and babies really easy!!

We always managed to get wind up with our dd2 but she still puked regularly. It seemed entirely unrelated to burps. I think she just had a weak sphincter at the top of her stomach which she grew out of.

I never used infacol, just washed a lot! But the vomiting wasn't accompanied by an arching back as you describe.

Path - That sounds like really good advice, but all she ever does during the day is sleep! I do see her yawn occasionally though. Do you really think I should be putting her in the dark at 7pm? I've been taking her to bed with us at about 10:30 . She feeds at about 10 and again at 11:30 or midnight, then sleeps for a good 4-5 hour stretch.

I am so bloody clueless, obviously I'd love it if she went to sleep at 7pm, but I'd feel like a real idiot if that is why she's been crying all this time!!

Grammaticus - It was the arching back that made me initially think of reflux, as apparently it's something most babies with reflux do, but she started back-arching long before she started being sick. Well, she's only been sick like that twice, but I am sure she will do it more.

But it's nice to know that the volume of sick isn't totally abnormal, I was under the impression that babies did that bit of dribbly sick that you can wipe away with a cloth every now and again, not a bloody great puddle accompanied with cottage cheese-type lumps in it!

Some babies do sleep an incredible amount. e.g. Yesterday my 8wk old up at 7.30am down at 8.35. Up at 9.30 down at 11am. Up at 2pm down at 3pm. Up at 4pm down at 5pm up at 6.30pm for last feed then down for the night. I barely see him but I do get to do a lot of mn

And don't doubt yourself, everyone feels like they're completely out of their depth with a newborn. I felt so disappointed with msyelf as I thought I'd find it all so easy and instinctive. It wasn't, I can assure you. You sound like you're doing a wonderful job, you're not clueless, otherwise you'd just wipe the sick up and not even think twice about it.

You're responding to your baby and trying to do the best you can. It's enough, I promise you.

With the infacol, I found that squirting it into the side of DD's mouth, towards the back if you can manage it, meant that she had no option but to swallow it.

There is also a product called Colief which I think helps if wind is caused by lactose intolerance in your lo. But I'd try with the infacol a little longer, if you can get her to swallow it, as it really did help us bring up our dd's wind.