Sooooooo....I spoke to a lovely lady on the Heinz Tinytums consumer helpline this morning............

[lackaDAISYcal]

.......and voiced my concerns to her about the price increase, recipe change and all the other issues that have come to light over the new, rebranded and remixed Farley's milk.

I first got the spiel about "we think this is now the most superior product on the market" and "closest to breastmilk".

I questioned the price increase.....apparently the new ingredient can only be sourced from one manufacturer and is expensive, but it is worth it for "the best formula milk on the market"

I questioned how they could say they are committed to fair prices now then.....they are hoping that as this magic ingredient will come down in price and they will reduce the price accordingly.

I questioned exactly what the new ingredient was....it apparently helps with constipation.

I questioned what if my baby isn't constipated and that I had read that it had caused some babies to have explosive watery diahorrea (which you would expect if you were taking a laxative when not constipated)......apparently it is so wonderful that it can tell the difference between a constipated and a not constipated baby and it's effects are gentle on a baby's tummy

I questioned the size increase of the box giving the subliminal message that there would be more product...apparently this is so they can provide a little space for the scoop as they used to get complaints about losing the scoop in the powder. (DH is a pckaging development mananger and he said that over use of packaging is illegal and they can be reported to trading standards)

I questioned especially her claim that it is the most superior and closest to breastmilk formula out there.....and suggested that if they want something closest to breastmilk they should use otter's milk, not cow's milk, as tests have shown otter's milk to be almost identical to human breastmilk (This was passed on to me by the ABM BFC who did my peer supporter training, something about the type of mammal we are and how we nurture our young.)

I also told her that the feeling towards heinz over this issue was pretty hostile and that I had seen calls for a boycott of Heinz products and that Heinz should be aware just how aggrieved people are over this issue and the lack of information on the website about why Farley's suddenly just became difficult to get and then disappeared. I told her that I used Farley's as I had seen Heinz as one of the most ethical manufacturer's out there who had an honest pricing structure and didn't go for the mass advertising that other's did, but that I had seriously considered my postion and would not use any Heinz baby products again and that I had contacted Consumer Direct over some of these issues, including the 50% price increase.

Did I go too far?

did others get the impression taht hflotsnumbers is someone who works for a formula company who was on a trolling mission on that thread?

I don't think so kiskidee....having seen her on a few other threads I think she just likes to play Devil's advocate. She eventually said on the other thread that she had actually written to C&G to complain

i don't believe she did. but that is just sceptical me again.

But you can be certain the formula companies watch this forum as well as others on the web - it would be astonishing if they did not. They may not always post in other identities, though I have seen what I reckoned was definite marketing under the guise of pretending to be a 'real' mother elsewhere (not on mumsnet).

really tiktok

I wonder if they operate a blacklist too.

And if they have, am I on it?

I couldn't stop myself phoning C&G this morning and asking why the information on mixed feeding on their website contradicts that given by the NHS. (ie - suggests that mixed feeding allows you to breastfeed longer and keep all the benefits of breastfeeding).

I was very polite but the woman got quite shirty with me. Kept saying that their stuff is checked very carefully to comply with the law on the marketing of infant formula. I just pointed out that their information contradicted that being given to mothers by midwives and health visitors and that this was undermining and confusing. I asked her if the information was evidence based and if so, where could I access the research references.

She took my name and number down and promised that someone would get back to me.

.

Yep - I think it was discussed here, too, at the time, but not sure.

People were posting on one of the big parenting forums asking for support and advice on feeding issues, including breastfeeding, and there was a spate of suspicious looking replies all recommending particular a particular formula. I know this can happen anyway, with people trying to be genuinely helpful, but there was something odd about this one.

It's a very easy marketing strategy, used in other consumer areas and not just the web.

That reply about posting on forums was to Daisy.

Sabire, yes, I am pretty certain they will flag up your name and details and if you call next time, they will have you down as someone who was asking some questions - why would they not do that? When you phone the gas company or the phone company, they have your previous history of calls on the screen.

I'm sure employees of formula companies post on various forums as well.

Including their own, which are heavily advertised to expectant and new mums. If I had the morals of a rattlesnake and worked for/owned a formula company, I'd sure as hell exploit any loophole I could in the law to ensure my product was marketed to as many women as possible.

(With apologies to rattlesnakes)

i'm obviously far too trusting as that has really shocked me.

Good for you sabire.....I think they might be getting a bit of a barrage at the minute.

Interesting that I haven't heard back from the email I sent to heinz.....obviously also blacklisted after my earlier phone call or dismissed as "that weirdo otter woman again"

not got time to read all thread so apologies if repeating but just in relation to this:

"They may not always post in other identities, though I have seen what I reckoned was definite marketing under the guise of pretending to be a 'real' mother elsewhere"

Pretending to be a consumer and posting positive things on forums or blogs about the product you actually represent is now illegal under the consumer protection act (since May this year).

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

sabire, let us know if someone gets back to you.

The research - ie the Infant Feeding survey - shows more mixed feeding than before, and it also shows women are tending to breastfeed for slightly longer. Now, if all you do is look at the raw stats, and think that A causes B, you could argue that 'mixed feeding means people breastfeed for longer'.

Of course that is not true - and if C&G come back to you and suggest it is, you can rebut it confidently.

The increase in mixed feeding is not a cause of people breastfeeding for longer. Women are breastfeeding for longer than they used to (not massively, but slightly)...alongside some formula feeding. Instead of stopping breastfeeding totally, they'll continue for a bit longer. The formula is not enabling them to do this, in any way - it's just what they are doing, for a variety of reasons. Of course the formula then undermines the breastfeeding, and they do eventually stop breastfeeding altogether...but they have breastfed for longer than a woman might have done 10 years or so ago. What has enabled her to continue is her wish to breastfeed and hopefully, better support, not the use of the formula. Hope I am explaining it ok! the formula is incidental.

The other stats we have are the figures from the early weeks in the Infant Feeding Survey, which are pretty clear - anyone using formula in the first week of breastfeeding is overwhelmingly more likely than the excl bf to be fully formula feeding after (I think) three weeks. Even this is not pure cause and effect, as the mother using formula in the first week already has a bf problem - we know the formula is unlikely to improve it, but her switch to full ff two weeks later is not solely caused by the use of formula.

Pruners - It used to be very common (and probably still is) and it's certainly very new legislation but it's definitely now illegal.

katie - very interesting, and I didn't know that. That's prob why I haven't seen any of these suspicious posts recently.

here you go (from e-consultancy):

"Paragraph 22, Section 1: Falsely claiming or creating the impression that the trader is not acting for purposes relating to his trade, business, craft or profession, or falsely representing oneself as a consumer.

If an agency is hanging around in communities, building networks or communicating with Key Influencers for you - and they're not being open with those key influencers or communities as to whom they are - then they may well be acting as a 'trader' attempting to pass themselves off as a consumer."

Bit of jargon language re: "influencers" etc but it boils down to pretending to be a regular mum and saying "hey mums, why don't you have a look at this great new pram etc" when actually you are the pram maunfacturer or their agency.

How about a forum that is hosted by the company in question?

Hmmm, not honestly sure hunker. I'd imagine the same rules would apply but it's very new legislation so prob yet to be tested. I'm sure a wise, lawyer mumsnetter could give us more of an idea.

pruners - I once got accused of this on MN in relation to a book (I am genuinely such a geek that I can get very excited about books that are about to be published that I haven't even read yet). Wouldn't have thought anyone would be as gungho about formula mind, but who knows...

Oh, I'm just so excited - got a press release through from Aptamil today, entitled "Infant milk study holds out the promise of protection from allergy and infection".

I have posted it on my blog if anyone wants to read it....

and then perhaps comment?

Enjoy! I will be here in the bunker with my hard hat on and popcorn

very interesting thread, I am delighted to see the anti mood against the Farleys fiasco is coming up with some positive suggestions on what we can do - I will look at the independent link now and many thanks to the person who took the time to make the initial phone call to the helpline. I am still minded to boycott Heinz products but am also keen to support anything that makes this poorly communciated and stress inducing change over of milk feed hurt the company the way it stressed many parents- sorry for lack of commas there!

Weel done you!! I have sent them a strongly worded email regarding the price increase. Also I pointed out that this new fancy plastic moulded top makes ity impossible to get teh last two or three scoops out as it used to be easy to pour them into a fresh tin and avoid waste ( at the new higher price we can't afford to wasted a granule!)
From an environmental perspective, how are we meanty to recycle a cardboard carton with a plastic top and a metal base. Has anyone tried separating the components? Don't because its dangerous and you end up with a razor sharp metal disc and a a kitchen floor full of plastic shards! They can stick there new fancy formula up their greedy bottoms and I hope they all get constipated!!