Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Just when thought we found a breastfeeding star.

137 replies

kkdmom · 02/07/2008 04:35

ho-hum.

OP posts:
misdee · 02/07/2008 13:14

so am i hatrick. i am going to see if i can repeat dd2 and dd3 specular weight gain and not loss in the first week again lol.

but day by day is how i did it with dd3, and was shocked when i got to 6months, and then 12months. then 2years! i never ever thought i wold get to two years.

CJMommy · 02/07/2008 13:16

I am proud to say that I breastfed for 4 months. With my next DC will hopefully carry on for longer. I think CC has done a fantastic job and I'm pleased to see that she has been honest about her experiences. I can only see her comments in a positive light but that's just my personal opinion - well done Charlotte!

lululemonrefuser · 02/07/2008 14:25

Sabire - I'm with devonblue in feeling that your responses are more than a little patronising and are very bound to a 'theory' of breastfeeding and the social dynamics around it. But it is a personal thing, and an area where personal experiences count for a lot. I just think that overthinking and theorising about these decisions doesn't help women to breastfeed in the first place and then keep going.

Stepping away from this now ... I don't quite know why I got involved in the first place!

sabire · 02/07/2008 14:43

"There you go again Sabire - my attitude wasn't shaped utterly by other people's personal experiences of breastfeeding. It was based totally on scientific evidence that bf is best for the baby (in most cases, but let's not get into that)"

So the breastfeeding experiences of other people you know didn't in any way shape your own feelings or expectations as to how it might be for you?

Surely people's expectations of every aspect of parenting are influenced in some way - consciously or unconsciously, by what they have seen and heard about it before they have their own child?

"I am fairly detached from the debate, but I think if you really care about bf you need to at least listen when people are telling you (actually very gently) that your comments are coming across as patronising or antagonistic. It really isn't the way to encourage people to do what you want"

I'm not trying to encourage anyone 'to do what I want'. I'm trying to express a point of view about extended breastfeeding.

And I don't think the words 'very gently' and 'you come across as patronising and antagonistic' really belong together in a sentence.

In fact if anyone on this thread is being PERSONAL and unpleasant it's you - you're openly attacking me for expressing a view that is in no way critical of you or your choices. Why do you feel the need to do that? Personally attack me and my values? Or is it that you just don't like what I say and launching a personal attack on me and the way I express myself is the easiest way for you to try to stop me saying it?

"I honestly don't think she can be held to account for any failure to provide an acceptable public health message"

What about this scenario: CC with six month old baby espousing the virtue of giving her baby a weaning diet of home made food. Cue lots of approving magazine articles about her giving her baby a really healthy start in life and flagging up the issue of young mums being involved in cooking and getting their children on the right track nutritionally.

Three months later: 'I've now decided to use jars all time time: can't be doing with chopping up all those vegetables and pureeing them. So looking forward to not having to spend time cooking for my baby.'

'hmm'

cupsoftea · 02/07/2008 14:46

who guidelines are to bf until 2. Her comments about getting her body back are rubbish now that she's preg again. Wonder if she'll ff?

sabire · 02/07/2008 14:55

"But it is a personal thing, and an area where personal experiences count for a lot. I just think that overthinking and theorising about these decisions doesn't help women to breastfeed in the first place and then keep going"

OFFS. They're not intended to! Why should they? I'm contributing to a discussion on breastfeeding after 6 months. The one thing there is NO shortage of when it comes to the debate on infant feeding is people's personal experiences. They make up 99% of the discussion on this board.

Isn't there a little room for a wider discussion - drawing in some of the underpinning cultural and social issues? Why do we have to talk about these things as if our experiences and our beliefs about bf happen in a historical, political and cultural vacuum?

It's a lack of theory and an over emphasis on the personal that's led to the utter catastrophe that constitutes bf 'support' within large swathes of the NHS today. If people had spent a bit more time analysing what lies beneath public attitudes and beliefs about breastfeeding and formula feeding at a wider social level, we probably wouldn't be in the mess with infant feeding we're in now.

devonblue · 02/07/2008 14:59

Oh dear. I didn't mean to be as rude as you think I've been.

You quoted me correctly the first time and not the second. I said your comments come across as patronising or antagonistic, not you. Come across is also subjective -I am telling you how I see them.

Other people told you gently that you were putting people off - I thought I told you in a direct but not personal way the same thing as you didn't seem to be getting the point.

It is patronising to assume that other women will only be make their parenting choices based on what Charlotte Church or some other current celebrity says.

I am trying to say the in my opinion the subject is very close to your heart and you might serve your stated aims better by getting a little perspective.

That's not a personal atttack. I don't know you - only what you have written here.

TheFallenMadonna · 02/07/2008 15:02

I thought we were taking about whether Chalotte Church should talk about her experiences, or whether she should have "kept her trap shut" and thought of the wider implications for public health.

lululemonrefuser · 02/07/2008 16:23

Sabire,

Please don't swear at me. Both your comments directed at me come across as though you are exasperated and think I'm utterly dense. I'm not.

There is room for wider discussion, of course, and no, I don't think that we live our lives and make our decisions in a vacuum. But the fact that, as you say, breastfeeding discussions are 99% personal anecdote surely suggests that this is an area that people are not responding to in a considered academic manner, and that as I said earlier, theorising and instructing doesn't seem to be working any better in getting breastfeeding rates up than old wives tales and anecdotes do. Rather, theory shuts people out, because when it doesn't work out as the theory suggests, they have nowhere to turn.

Maybe I am just peculiarly resistant to authority of any kind, but I really bridle against someone telling me they know my own body and my own experience better than me. Breastfeeding is unique in our human experience in that you are connecting with another being which is totally dependent on you in a physical and profound way. And that is why some women don't want to do it, or not for very long.

Finally, if the goal of the pro-breastfeeding groups is to get women feeding, surely praising someone who manages 6 months rather than criticising her for what she didn't do is more appropriate.

sabire · 02/07/2008 16:23

"It is patronising to assume that other women will only be make their parenting choices based on what Charlotte Church or some other current celebrity says"

I'm sorry - exactly WHERE do I say this, or anything like it anywhere on this board?

"Other people told you gently that you were putting people off - I thought I told you in a direct but not personal way the same thing as you didn't seem to be getting the point."

I assume what you mean by 'you didn't seem to be getting the point' was that I didn't backpedal, apologise or stop posting. Actually I saw the criticism and carried on in the same vein because I thought what I was saying was fair and reasonable, not a personal attack, and was pertinent to the subject being discussed in this thread.

As to your comments not being personal, try this: your posts come across as and self-righteous. But don't take that personally. I don't know anything about you as an individual. I just know that your comments on mumsnet come across as smug and finger wagging.

There - not very nice is it?

"I am trying to say the in my opinion the subject is very close to your heart and you might serve your stated aims better by getting a little perspective."

And exactly what or whose perspective is that?

TennantbellesMum · 02/07/2008 16:59

Psst Hunker

sabire · 02/07/2008 17:12

"But the fact that, as you say, breastfeeding discussions are 99% personal anecdote surely suggests that this is an area that people are not responding to in a considered academic manner"

People generally don't respond to this with a discussion of the wider issues (except here on mumsnet) because there's great resistence to acknowledging that women's success and failure with breastfeeding is anything other than a purely personal thing.

I can tell you though, that EVERYONE who's got any signficant involvement with this issue at a professional level spends a lot of time thinking about, reading about and discussing it.

Do you honestly think a discussion that goes beyond the strictly personal doesn't contribute anything at all useful to the debate? Talking about the cultural issues that shape our experiences and are knowledge of breastfeeding are CRUCIAL to understanding how we've arrived at a place where the MAJORITY of women are stopping breastfeeding before they want to, and where the majority of babies are only fed for a few weeks.

"across as though you are exasperated and think I'm utterly dense"

I don't think and haven't implied that you're in any way dense. I'm just exasperated at you being so judgemental about widening the debate beyond the domain of people's personal experiences of this subject.

"and that as I said earlier, theorising and instructing doesn't seem to be working any better in getting breastfeeding rates up"

Well that's because the people who have the most impact on mum's chances of bf success are exactly those people who have the least knowledge and understanding of these things - ie your poorly trained mw and maternity assistant on the postnatal ward, and the friends and relatives of women who are struggling to feed their babies once they get back into the community. They not only don't have the practical skills to help mums with bf, but they don't have enough of a cultural perspective on their knowledge of bf to know just how much damage they're doing. In other words - these are the very people who know nothing of the theory or the wider debate and they're the people doing the most damage.

I think the point I want to make is that you need to think about BOTH theory AND personal experience if you want to really make sense of things. You seem to be implying that if your experience doesn't fit with the theory (in so far as you seem to see 'theory' as a narrow set of beliefs and 'rules' that are set in stone - this is not the way I look at it) then it somehow disproves the theory or trivialises the personal experience.

"but I really bridle against someone telling me they know my own body and my own experience better than me"

But I didn't imply or say you had got things wrong. You have taken every thing I have said completely at face value as though it was an absolute, and as though it was a personal challenge to your experience. Are we not allowed to generalise AT ALL in relation to this topic because someone is always going to pop up and say 'well it didn't happen like that for me - therefore you're talking rubbish'!

"Breastfeeding is unique in our human experience in that you are connecting with another being which is totally dependent on you in a physical and profound way. And that is why some women don't want to do it, or not for very long."

Well I agree with this statement completely. But I don't see how it can be used as a reflection or criticism of anything I've said in my posts.

hunkermunker · 02/07/2008 17:14

Thank you, TM

TennantbellesMum · 02/07/2008 17:25

Thought you might like that one. I've decided that this baby isn't going to be breastfed. Please anyone feel free to pick me up if I'm caught out breastfeeding the new baby! I've also decided to stop breastfeeding Tink.

(I know I'm going to slip up!)

FioFio · 02/07/2008 17:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

kkdmom · 02/07/2008 18:16

i will now say this for the last time. I am really really pleased that CC bf for as long as she did. In fact if she tried it once, had issues with it and never bf again, it would have been great for her to find out that it wasn't for her.

I really don't follow celeb culture. I don't pay attention to any of it. I have no opinion on CC, Victoria B or Jordan etc. I only posted the link initially because it would give MN something to talk on about. I copied the link from a listserv i am on.

What I do have a problem with is someone who is well liked and well respected has faulty information coming out of their mouths. I care about that because lots of people who do not actually know what the UK guidelines are for breastfeeding will instead remember that CC or whoever the other famous person was who recently said it and take that piece of mythology as gospel and use it to undermine someone near and dear to them that you ought to give up once they get to 6mo.

there are threads on mn saying the same thing here, quite regularly.

That a 'piece of rubbish' instead of the current UK guideline which it is pretending to be allegedly came out of Charlotte's mouth, and I 'allegedly' only because I know how badly journos darn stories and don't know their facts, is why I referred to it as shit and that shit sticks - even if it isn't what she may have actually said. Charlotte, I hope, has enough PR experience by now to realise that what she says is scrutinised by the general public and by professionals in whatever she is espousing knowledge about. Maybe not, though, judging by the falsehood that is supposedly a quote of hers.

It all comes down to the phrase 'Watch your Language' as some bfing advocates on here may be able to relate to.

OP posts:
FioFio · 02/07/2008 18:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

unknownrebelbang · 02/07/2008 18:21

Wot Fio said, throughout.

AuntieSocial · 02/07/2008 18:21

I don't get the title of the OP:

"Just when we thought we found a breastfeeding star."

What does that mean, exactly? That Charlotte Church doesn't count as having breastfed as she stoppped at 6 months?

kkdmom · 02/07/2008 18:23

no, the doh recommends exclusive breastfeeding for the first 6 months. It goes on to recommend continued breastfeeding for at least the first 12 months, with complementary foods.

so, in the way i read that recommendation, the doh recommends bfing for the first year.

what you have said fio, seems to be much like what CC has 'said' (because i don't know if she has been misquoted or it is journalistic license) and what so many people are told.

It normally comes out from a 'helpful' relly like this: 'oh, you but you've done it for 6 months, why do you bother anymore. Give yourself a break.'

OP posts:
FioFio · 02/07/2008 18:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

FioFio · 02/07/2008 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

unknownrebelbang · 02/07/2008 18:31

rofl, don't think yer accent would match, fio.

kkdmom · 02/07/2008 18:35

no, she didn't miss out the word 'exclusive'. I don't care whether or not she bf exclusively or not. It is great that she bf at all.

she said "I breastfed for six months. That is the national guidelines and that's what I felt comfortable with"

So that reads to me that she thinks that 6 mos worth of bfing is all the doh recommends.

or maybe I can't read.

anyway here is something from the DOH's new weaning onto solids leaflet. You can interpret it whichever way you are happy to. here

"Until six months, your baby needs only breastmilk or infant formula milk. Around six months your baby needs more than milk alone and is able to eat solid foods in
addition to breast or formula milk.

"You will find that as your baby eats more solid foods, the amount of milk your baby wants will start to reduce.
Once your baby is eating plenty of solids several times a day, you can drop a milk feed but continue to breastfeed
or give 500?600ml (about a pint) of infant formula a day until at least 12 months of age. Breastfeeding willcontinue to benefit you and your baby for as long as you
choose to carry on."

Could that possibly mean, beyond say 6 or, for goodness sake, 12 months?

OP posts:
FioFio · 02/07/2008 18:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn