Breastfeeding is not best - Dr Karleen Gribble

[fabsmum]

Love this video

I can understand women wanting comfort for having formula fed when they planned to breastfeed - perfectly normal, human, response.

But these are not rational, sensible responses to the research. It doesn't matter a jot that brainy people were bottle fed - that does not show anything! No one is saying that formula fed babies are unintelligent and breastfed babies are all eggheads.

The research - slippery, as I said, because intelligence is culture-bound and the testing of it more so - indicates that overall, formula fed babies are likely to be a few points less intelligent than their breastfed counterparts. I think most studies indicate something like 6 to 10 points.

Like much health reearch, this is not an individual prediction. Intelligent people will remain intelligent however they are fed. Why? Because 6 to 10 points is not crucial at the higher end of things.

However, it could make a difference at the lower end of the scale. It might make the difference between someone living independently and needing a lot of support throughout their lives, for instance.

The mechanism by which this difference happens is plausible - to do with the contents of breastmilk and the way it is delivered, too.

Saying 'it can't be true because I know a very intelligent bottle fed individual' is not rational. It's the same as quoting your granny who smoked full-strength cigarettes all her life and then died at age 80 having been run over by a bus

The message is clear, i really wish bf was seen as normal & women could feed anywhere without feeling uncomfortable, so sad.

"Working class parents or chav estate mums(yes, i said I wasn't being PC) will almost certainly bottle feed their kids. They will also feed them sugary junk, stick them in front of the telly, shout at them and not play with them.
The kids probably won't be encouraged as school, might smoke and drink will possibley be overweight and they'll drop out with no qualifications."

I haven't seen you around before Nancy66 but I hope you will stay. your brand of intelligent, reasoned debate is just what we are missing on mumsnet.

so what can we do to make that happen?

I suppose firstly I would want to educate children.

Small things that irk me, and that make me wonder whether they're impacting upon a child's perception, are things like all dolls for some reason come with a toy bottle. Most books I have seen that show infant feeding, show a bottle.

Congratulations cards for newborns have bottles on. Bottles and babies have been so closely allied through all imagery relating to babies.

What to do? Unfortunately I think that in order to change the situation it is necessary to be explicit about the risks and harm of formula feeding. To refer to breastfeeding as the normal thing to do, accepting that in doing so you are saying that formula is inferior and inadeuate. But how many people would that make angry/sad? Would it work?

it would make too many voters angry/sad, imo.

earlier in the year I took my baby into the early years class at the infant school my older ones go to and I was asked not to mention to the children that he was fed from my breast as it would likely upset the parents that didnt feed their children this way, and they would have had to send out letters to all the parents to ask if they wanted their children to be told this in advance so that they could be in a different room, if I even mentioned breast feeding.

I thought that that was pc to the extreame, I wasnt planning on doing it in front of them, but even if I did it is the only natural way of feeding a baby,
I did ask if they would not be allowed to watch a calf feeding from its mother when they visited the farm the next week, but the teacher didnt coment, just smiled and asked if I had a bottle I could bring in to show the children the normal method of feeding!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And sad.

And shows it's not just children who need educating

That's really not right, surely??

Children should def be exposed to both methods of feeding, I think we need mass media exposure!!

Well, I guess we already have a mass media exposure of breasts - sadly that does and will always sell more then exposure of breasts for feeding.

137wallis. That is outrageous.

I'm all for respecting others and for not wanting to make people feel bad. But I am starting to get really cross about having to hide breastfeeding in the corner just in case it might offend other people who didn't breastfeed.

Case in point: had friends round last night, including 2 mothers. It was absolutely fine for them to say:

• breastfeeding in public is like peeing in public
• breastfeeding among other women just about OK, but women shouldn't breastfeed in front of emn
• they would be really cross if they paid for a meal out and someone was exposing themselves feeding their child on the next table.
• at the same times as continually saying that women should have the right to choose what they want to do with their baby in terms of feeding and that no one should be made to feel bad for having formula fed.

137wallis

I think that's UTTERLY appalling and if I was you I'd want to take it further - to the local press and to the education authority.

How on earth does does children being misled about normal infant nutrition fit in with the new birth to five curriculum?

I'm serious - what you describe is one of the worst examples of institutional ignorance I've ever encountered and I think you should do something about it.

I'd love to know what part of the country you live in. It must be somewhere with very low bf rates.

that is utterly bonkers, wallis, did you complain to the head? i've also seen news reports that the author of the katie morag books was asked to stop showing bfing in her american imprints. she refused, obv.

wallis - this is clearly something that happened recently, and you would be well-justified in taking it further. Speak to the head, and then if you have no satisfaction, speak to the governors so they can discuss it and clarify policy.

I meant it literally - what can we, as members of the public do? I'd really like to do something, but not sure what!

wallis If you feel you can take this further, please, please do, it sounds so wrong.

OK, here's the thread I mentioned, about a groundbreaking bf/intelligence study. Long thread, but the OP gives the gist of it. Worth noting that the babies were born a long time ago and the formula of that time didn't have the same fatty acids as modern formulas, so the difference may be less nowadays - but only time will tell.

Just going back to the "ff as default" issue - have you noticed how, on these threads, people asserting that bf is better in one way or another are always strongly challenged and made to argue their case?

Half of me thinks, of course it must be like that - you can't go on the internet and say things like that without backing up what you say.

But people arguing that babies are just as healthy on formula aren't pushed nearly as much to prove their case.

Yet surely - research aside - it's common sense that formula won't be as good as breastmilk. Formula is a copy of breastmilk after all, so it can't possibly have the same complexity and dynamic response.

As a matter of fact I think formula is amazing stuff - the fact that you can give it to a tiny newborn and they'll grow and thrive is a testament to that.

But while formula seems to be good at copying the nutritional ingredients of breastmilk, it seems to be less good at copying the immune ingredients, hence the greater risk of infection and diabetes among others.

But it's worrying to me that the default view seems to be that formula and breastmilk are much the same, with the onus on researchers to prove that they're not - instead of the far more logical view which is that formula is inevitably going to fall short in some ways and the main task of researchers is find out how, so the problems can be put right.

''But it's worrying to me that the default view seems to be that formula and breastmilk are much the same, with the onus on researchers to prove that they're not - instead of the far more logical view which is that formula is inevitably going to fall short in some ways and the main task of researchers is find out how, so the problems can be put right.''

The problems will never be put right. Each mothers breast milk is unique and versatile, adapting to the changing demands of the child.

Please consider getting hold of the Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer. This book explores many issues raised on this thread.

137 Wallis your experience provides such a sad reality of where we have got to with infant feeding.

talk about teaching gabrielle palmer to suck eggs...

If other products claim to have 'health benefits' then they need to be registered as a medicine, don't they? What about formula?

Formula IS amazing stuff and has prevented many babies from dying in the western world when women genuinely cannot feed their babies themselves (one of my Great Grandmother's lost 3 babies as she had problems feeding them, if she had had access to formula this would not have been a problem) - however it has also contributed to the deaths of millions of babies in less economically developed countries where clean, fresh drinking water is just not available and as much of the research shows had a detrimental affect on the health of not only the babies, BUT THE WOMEN AS WELL.

We expect cigarettes and alcoholic products to have health warnings, so why have I only just found out in the last 5 minutes of my life that NOT bfing my children could SERIOUSLY DAMAGE MY HEALTH???????

It is outrageous that women are not being given the information they deserve to make well informed choices, just because it may OFFEND someone.

I am ashamed now that I have this knowledge that I did not badger my SIL to continue feeding her DC1 when she was having sleep issues...I feel I was complicit in her decision to stop bfing . How will I ever look my nephew in the eye if she dies from breast cancer?

Yes, an extreme reaction, but I think it's about time we changed the debate around and instead of worrying about offending mothers who may not have currently had access to the support and information needed to help them continue to breastfeed, and started worrying about the next generation of mothers who DO have a chance to avoid these risks both for their babies and themselves.

ALSO if many women had had this information, that bfing is normal and you could out your child's health and your own health at risk if you did not BF, then I believe that MANY of the women who move onto FF would have chosen to persevere with bfing.

It needs to become normal, not best. I may cause offence, but I won't be mincing my words in the future when people discuss bfing.