Sitting here in tears... Being urged to FF top-ups...

[angel1976]

Hi,

I posted a few days again with regards to my DS' weight gain issue. Anyway, we went to a bf group yesterday, which was immensely helpful and DS was diagnosed with TT and a referral to get it snipped next Tuesday (fingers crossed!). In the meantime, he is getting fussier and fussier and it's driving me to tears...

Everything was fine up till Monday. Then Monday, he got weighed at the baby clinic and everything fell apart... He hasn't put on that much weight (9% to 2%) and he also seem to have started a growth spurt at the same time so for the last few days, he's either fussing or feeding all the time.

For example, he's been up and feeding on and off since 2am and finally went to sleep in a sling on DH at 11am! I was asked by the bf counsellor to express and to give him EBM top-ups. This morning, I only got a measly 5ml but he was happy to lap it up (cup-feeding him..). I KNOW in my heart that he is hungry and not getting satisfied. In the first two weeks, I can easily tell when he's had his fill (when he gets that 'drunk' look and pretty much passes out!). He hasn't had that 'dazed' look for a few days now...

I'm at the end of my tether and now being urged to do FF top-ups by DH and also the inlaws as they can see how stressed I am by the whole situation not to mention feeling like a complete failure of a mother... And I am slightly losing the plot a bit as I am now thinking how bad can it be if I just give him a capful of FF after his next BF? I don't know how I am going to get through the next 5 days (till the snip!). The HV is coming tomorrow for the first time (when DS will be 20 ays old!) and I now think DS has lost weight since Monday... I don't know what else to do!

Ax

As he is getting older he will naturally be a bit more awake - you maybe are just noticing that. Sounds like you have an identified reason for any feeding issues and that will be sorted soon - in the mean time he is able to feed so just keep going. I know it's really hard and the last thing you need is to be undermined by your inlaws - so tell them to get stuffed! (I'm feeling very grumpy this morning) You are not a failure as a mother! Tell dh that you just want to get through the next few days and then see what happens. Put baby in the sling and go out for a walk - take a bottle of water with you and drink it all the time - you need the fluid!

Grumpy and bossy apparently - sorry

i will probably get shot down in flames, BF vs FF is about the most contentious thing on here, but really, your baby will not suffer if you try mixed feeding/ff top ups for a while. I successfully bf DS for 5 months but to be honest when he was on a growth spurt I did top him up with formula. and why on earth not - if it makes you and the baby happier. good luck, and don't panic.

there are some links for 'exaggerated latch' which should help with tongue tie in the interim. will go have a look for you. my keyboard has been playing silly buggers so hopefully I can get it done soon.

Angel - so for you.

There is a whole lot of pressure and confusion on you.

You'll remember that the thread you started the other day revealed you cannot rely on the information given to you by the weights done on your baby. We actually don't know what your baby weighs, because the midwives were too sloppy to weigh him properly. However, the last weight you did did at least show he was up from his birthweight, which is fine. I don't know why the bf counsellor suggested expressing, but maybe she thought your baby would benefit from the boost, if the tongue tie is interfering with milk transfer.

Like any newborn, he needs to feed lots and lots, and it is fine for him to do so, and not a sign you haven't got enough milk.

What about poos and wees? It's a good sign if nappies are wet/heavy, and if he produces several large soft yellow poos a day.

He is not ill, and if he needs extra milk from what he can get direct, then he can have the expressed. Your technique with expressing can probably be improved - go from side to side and back again, to maximise yeild, and/or try hand expressing and/or a different pump.

It would also help you to talk to someone, either the bf counsellor you saw at the group, or a counsellor from one of the bf lines...they will help you talk about your wish to breastfeed exclusively with your DH and in-laws, who obv want to help but are just not doing so!

JolieGirl, it is simply not helpful- despite your intentions, which I'm sure are good - to say babies do not suffer with mixed feeding for a while. Quite apart from the health impact, mixed feeding risks ending breastfeeding prematurely - of course it doesn't have to, and of course some mothers go back to full breastfeeding, but the evidence is crystal clear: introducing formula makes premature ending of breastfeeding more likely.

If babies are ill or malnourished and breatfeeding can't be fixed, then it's a different situation, of course...but that doesn't apply here. Angel wants to breastfeed. The very thought of formula is distressing her. It will not make her and her baby 'happier', as you suggest, because even the thought of it is making her cry.

That's not shooting you down in flames, I hope, but just telling it like it is.

Thanks for your advice. I was almost in tears yesterday talking to the bf counsellor cos she was so nice and understanding and now I am sitting here and typing in tears. I just feel so emotional about it all and worry that DS is starving to death! He has been pooing and weeing and that's what I don't get! He seems to be getting enough judging by his poos and wees but he just constantly wants to feed or he cries like the banshee! I really have no idea how I will cope tomorrow if HV comes and finds his weight has dropped. I know I am being paranoid but I put a pair of trousers on him this morning and they kinda just fell off (they fitted before!) and it just about broke my heart!

oh, angel, big hugs! i have been exactly there with my tongue tied ds1. miserable expressing tiny amounts, fussy hungry baby who couldn't latch on properly.you are not alone, and you certainly are not a failure as a mother.

firstly, it is normal for babies to loose weight initially; they should be at about birth wt at 2 weeks. the charts never seem to take account of this. you say he hasn't put on much wt, but the fact he is above birth wt is good.

your dh and in-laws are trying to find a solution as they can see you are upset and in pain and formula is the only thing they think might help. if you feel fine with that, do it, but if it will upset you more, explain why you don't want to.

lots of lansinoh might help. sling good idea. have a warm bath and try to express there?

Tiktok actually it seems clear to me that she is distressed because the baby is. if the baby can bottle feed and is more content and gaining weight this way then what is the issue? don't get me wrong I am a HUGE fan of breastfeeding but you have to be realistic and accept that for every mother and every baby there are different needs. we have to get over this big stigma attached to breast is best - sometimes the fact is it isn't as far as I can tell. life is too short and the time with a new baby too precious - you need to make it as easy for everyone as possible surely? mums just cannot be made to feel like a failure because they cannot BF. every situation is so different.

He is not starving to death! It is normal for babies to feed a lot in the first few weeks - added to which you know about the tongue issue and that will have an impact - but it's fixable. You don't have to see the hv tomorrow - if you will feel better, ring her tell her about the tongue tie but that nappies etc are fine and you would like to see her next week after your appt as you feel that will be more meaningful. Also the tousers - don't want to sound patronising (to add to grumpy and bossy - soon have all the 7 dwarves here) but maybe his nappy was just in a different position - or his legs have grown so it's sitting differently?

dd also went through a feeding frenzy at this age. I ended up ringing the NCT support line and sobbing because I was so knackered and overwhelmed. The advice I got from my excellent health visitor was to ditch the feeding record I'd been obsessively keeping, and to just be with her, feeding whenever she wanted but in comfortable positions so I could rest and feed at the same time.
I couldn't tell you how many times I fell asleep bolt upright mid-feed, waking up feeling cross with myself for doing so.
Tired is not the word.
But throughout, I just couldn't quite make the leap to introducing formula, partly because I knew that there would be bottles to make up and sterilise and that I would feel bad.
In the end, dd was fully breastfed (with solids) until she was 13 months.
Things improved in terms of my confidence when dd was about 4 weeks old and in terms of the cluster feeding and round the clock side of things by the time she was about 3 months and was emerging from the other side of colic. Ds had no colic and was much less frenzied from the get-go. Plus I was more confident.
I think that I would advise you to take on board the advice of the BFC and to take with a pinch of salt the weight issue - particularly as if I recall correctly your midwives have been weighing your ds clothed and nappied (which is very misleading when a full nappy can make a big difference weight wise).

angel, just reading this thread, have nothing to add but just wanted to add some support. You can breastfeed! Your supply should increase to meet his demand. Feeding him often is the best thing you can do.
No chance you can get the snip brought forward?

angel, the poos and wees thing is great....it really is a good sign things are going well.

What is it you are concerned about?

His weight is actually fine - the last weight was on the baby clinic's scales and was presumably accurate. He had gained. It does not matter that he was born on the 9th centile and is now on the 2nd. This can be totally normal. Just occasionally, babies who do this are not transferring milk well, and this is why other factors are important, such as the pooing and the weeing, the 'look' of the baby and the general behaviour.

A baby who wants to be fed a lot is a normal baby. Your baby sleeps sometimes, but shows a clear preference for sleeping close to you - hurrah! If your baby needs to gain weight faster than he is doing then this is the only way he can do it, by 'asking' for more opportunities to feed, and his best bet is to stay close so you can get the message whenever he wants to send it

I can't explain the trousers thing - I wonder if he just had a bigger nappy on last time! If he was actually dropping a 'dress size' then he would be showing other signs. Can you see the HV today rather than spend another day and night in distress?

Jolie, it seems to me that there is nothing that Angel has posted that would suggest that she cannot feed, nor that her baby would be more contented and settled on formula. It's almost a self-fulfilling thing in my view - if Angel tries to see whether her ds is more comfortable and less ravenous with formula, it means replacing a breast feed or maybe more with bottles. Is a slippery slope at such an early stage in establishing breast feeding and when the baby is so young (and has possible latch issues with the tongue-tie).

so far i have found this on the LLLi site. here somewhere, i can't remember if it is book or internet, i have seen pictures.

Infants with a tight frenulum can often breastfeed with special attention to a deeper latch that maximizes tongue contact with the breast. An asymmetric latch, where the nipple is presented to the infant?s upper lip so the baby extends the head back slightly, opens wide, and latches on with the lower lip and tongue tip as far away from the nipple as possible can help achieve this goal (Eastman 2000). It may also be helpful for the mother to position the lower lip on the areola, and roll or pivot the baby onto the breast. If the baby chokes or sputters during feeding, leaning back so baby is almost lying on mother?s chest can improve his ability to handle the flow of milk. The mother can be encouraged to be patient with the baby and not expect him to be as efficient as other infants. A tongue-tied infant is especially vulnerable to failure-to-thrive if feedings are timed or rigidly scheduled.

dr jack newman's videos has 2 with asymmetric latch as discussed above.

then again. tiktok is fab. I would go with what she is saying. my googling is another string to your bow.

Jolie, every situation is indeed different, and that's why the first thing to do when offering help is to listen to the mother - and angel was clear about her preference (very strong preference) to give breastmilk only. How helpful is it to anyone to say, as you do, 'but I don't think you should have this strong preference' .

I am offended, frankly, that you imply that I am part of the 'mums should feel like failures' idea if they do not breastfeed exclusively - nothing I have said here or elsewhere, or that anyone else has said on this thread, supports that.

You say she needs to make her baby happy - but Angel's baby is not unhappy - where does she say her baby is unhappy (except when he needs feeding)?

Jolie, You mean well but please give Angel a chance to sort out feeding after the baby's TT is snipped, and get at least a bit of confidence in her ability to feed after more help from a BFC. It's clear from her posts she really wants to BF and she can be encouraged to do lots of other things - like skin to skin contact, expressing, and even trying not to worry so much because lots of us, reading her posts about weight gain etc, don't think she does have anything to worry about.

A lot of what others who don't understand BF think of as 'baby's distress' in these early days are actually just cues to breastfeed more. In this time, if Angel wants to BF what she needs is encouragement to do so and sounds like she's not getting that from he family either...

Angel - please keep going. Even if you do have to express, please talk to a BF counsellor some more about your worries. You will produce enough milk, but if your baby is tongue tied he could be finding it difficult to get at it well. You're doing the right things and many of us worry about feeding inthe early days. If it helps, keep venting your worries on here, but listen to Tiktok, she knows what she's talking about.

Hi ladies,

After just over an hour's of peace and quiet (DS still sleeping in DH's chest!), I feel more sane... I will try and keep formula out of the equation at the moment. I was just so emotional this morning after a serious lack of sleep and him crying and talking to anyone just made me want to cry. Gosh, this parenting lark is sooooo hard! I can't get the snip brought any closer as that's when Dr Patel at King's has his clinic. I might look into getting it done privately if there is a remote possibility it can be done tomorrow. I've read so many stories and articles that say getting the snip would really help with the feeding. I have no idea how I will make it past the next few days otherwise... Thanks for all your advice, it really helps.

Ax

Someone on my antenatal thread had her LO's tongue tie snipped and iirc found feeding loads easier almost immediately. Glad you are feeling more positive.

"I have no idea how I will make it past the next few days otherwise... " feed on demand, sleep whenever you can and vent on MN!
Oh and go and get yourself a coffee and cake or biscuit while your LO is asleep at the moment!

Glad your feeling better Angel
Just wanted to add my support for Jolie (so she doesn't feel too ganged up on) What you said was just right. Angel if you can carry on b/feeding than that's obviously the best thing to do, but if you can't or you want to try another option then formula's okay too. Really. It is. You are NOT a failure whatever you decide.

oh angel, i feel for you i really do.
Two things to add, may have already been said, im rushing because dd is giving me a hard time

Firstly, what breast pump do you have, i tried all the portable thingies and found them next to useless, i then was leant a huge milking machine by the NCT and it drained enough milk for the street, well not really but much much more. That might be worth considering.

Secondly, I ended up topping up with formula after about 8 weeks i think. It was the difference between being able to continue BF or having to stop completely. It worked for me, i felt bad about it at first, but it just became what we did.

Don't beat yourself up over this, listen to your body and listen to your baby. You are a great mum and you will do what the best thing is. You dont have to wait until tomorrow, take your baby to clinic and get him weighed today, just so you know where things stand, you might be surprised, if you are then worried, you can speak to someone sooner, for your own peace of mind.

oops, cross posts - it sounds like you are onto the winning formula already that is, not having to use it Hope things continue to improve, tiredness is a killer isnt it

Hi all,

Thanks, I think part of it is feeling alone in gong through all this. No one ever quite prepares you for just hard it is to have a little one so dependent on you and everyone keeps telling me it gets better at 6/8/12 weeks mark but it's getting there that's the bugger isn't it? He's such an angel to everyone else... Yesterday, when we took him to the baby clinic, he behaved impeccably. Got there, he was nice and alert, started crying when the bf counsellor wanted to see how he feeds and then happily falls asleep. At home, it's a different matter altogether and everyone thinks you are making stuff up or something when you tell them how difficult he's been!

I've got a medela mini pump and I think it's working great in tha when I pumped for the first time yesterday, I got about 5ml but last night, I managed 20ml, which mostly dribbled down LO's chin as I tried to feed him while he was sleeping. BAD IDEA! I got another 5ml this morning and I'm hoping it would get better as I get more familiar with it! It seems to work best when placed a certain way, I just need to figure what is different!

Ax