Sitting here in tears... Being urged to FF top-ups...

[angel1976]

Hi,

I posted a few days again with regards to my DS' weight gain issue. Anyway, we went to a bf group yesterday, which was immensely helpful and DS was diagnosed with TT and a referral to get it snipped next Tuesday (fingers crossed!). In the meantime, he is getting fussier and fussier and it's driving me to tears...

Everything was fine up till Monday. Then Monday, he got weighed at the baby clinic and everything fell apart... He hasn't put on that much weight (9% to 2%) and he also seem to have started a growth spurt at the same time so for the last few days, he's either fussing or feeding all the time.

For example, he's been up and feeding on and off since 2am and finally went to sleep in a sling on DH at 11am! I was asked by the bf counsellor to express and to give him EBM top-ups. This morning, I only got a measly 5ml but he was happy to lap it up (cup-feeding him..). I KNOW in my heart that he is hungry and not getting satisfied. In the first two weeks, I can easily tell when he's had his fill (when he gets that 'drunk' look and pretty much passes out!). He hasn't had that 'dazed' look for a few days now...

I'm at the end of my tether and now being urged to do FF top-ups by DH and also the inlaws as they can see how stressed I am by the whole situation not to mention feeling like a complete failure of a mother... And I am slightly losing the plot a bit as I am now thinking how bad can it be if I just give him a capful of FF after his next BF? I don't know how I am going to get through the next 5 days (till the snip!). The HV is coming tomorrow for the first time (when DS will be 20 ays old!) and I now think DS has lost weight since Monday... I don't know what else to do!

Ax

I had one of those Medela pumps too... they are good.

I had similar problems to you, I honest to goodness think I just produce milk very slowly, meaning feeds were taking about an hour(!) DS's weight also dropped, and was not going up.

What I did that definitely made me less stressed was that for about a week, I expressed aaaall the feeds I was giving, ensuring that DS would feed well, and quickly, and I would also know how much he was drinking.... and inbetween those feeds, I was just expressing constantly. I gradually saw the amount increasing that I was able to express, and also DS getting a bit more satisfied after a feed.

I know some people will say the baby is at risk of getting bottle/nipple confusion, but it worked for me, and I was far more relaxed after that, because I was confident in what I could produce, and structured the (by then normal breastfeeds) accordingly.
Ok, it meant for a while there I was doing nothing more than feeding or expressing, but once I accepted I was going to be a useless cleaner/cook/finance manager(!) for a few months, the anxiety/stress/feelings of uselessness started to go away.

And I really do NOT think it is helpful for people to point out the negative health implications of formula to mothers who are clearly finding breastfeeding upsetting!!! Millions of babies are bottlefed and miraculously grow up healthy! People should do what works for them, and what they are comfortable with.

Angel, you're doing very well! You won't get much with the pump at first but gradually you will get more and more if you keep going with it. Basically, at the moment, because of the tongue-tie, the "demand" is not there, babs is hungry but his efforts are not coming to much, so you have to create the demand with the pump. This should increase your supply and if you top him up as much as you can, it really should work in the short term, particularly as he is actually sucking as well, which is the best stimulant. On the bright side, at least the tongue-tie was picked up and you know you will be able to get something done about it.

I haven't been in this situation but I did have enormous difficulties in the early days and I just wanted to offer my support. I really wanted to breastfeed and found it very discouraging when my mother and even my GP urged me to give a bottle. DH even suggested it in the early days because we were pretty desperate. Anyway, I had tons of good advice on MN, found a local babycafe which was excellent, and saw a very good NCT bf counsellor. Several months on, I'm happy to say my DD is thriving and was exclusively bf until 6 months when I introduced some solids. With the right support anything is possible! Best of luck getting the TT fixed. The early days of bf are indeed bloody difficult, you are doing brilliantly. The early days are a total blur when I look back, but I'm very pleased I was so bloodyminded about breastfeeding, I really enjoy it now.

When I was expressing I found it really hard at first. I was too tense as it was a practise for returning to work, so there wasn't any option - either I had to be able to express or give ff. Typically I got absolutely nothing.

After that it got much easier each time I expressed. Whilst expressing I flicked through dd's baby photos, read magazines, listened to the radio, in fact anything that took my mind off what I was doing or made me think about dd. Some people say they find it easier to express whilst feeding from the other side but I didn't.

Sorry, bit of a waffle. Just wanted to say it does get easier. Keep wriggling the pump around to try and get a good position.

Thanks... DS still sleeping! Bliss!!!!! But know there will be trouble when he wakes... LOL... I really should get off the bloody computer and get some rest... But can't help coming here to read all the messages of support, it really helps to get me going knowing there isn't a right or wrong way of doing things as such and I enjoy reading all the different experiences... :P

bergentulip, your comment how people should not raise the negative health implications of formula was to me - and I will tell you why I raised it.

Because Jolie - out of a wish to help - said there was no risks to using formula (she said quite definitely that angels' baby 'would not suffer' if he had formula). I responded to that - because she can not be certain this is the case. I did not list the risks, I did not go on about them, and I pointed out that giving formula can undermine breastfeeding. So my comments were to Jolie, really, though of course anyone else can read them, I realise!

I think we need to be honest and supportive and kind - pretending that there are no risks to formula is none of these things, and it trivialises the very strong feelings people have about wanting to breastfeed. Along with being honest, supportive and kind we can also be tactful, so we don't write a huge long list of risks in individual, graphic detail...which of course I did not do

Angel is already under pressure to use formula. To come on here, and find people saying 'use formula if you want to, your baby will be fine' is not helpful to her wish to continue without formula. She knows formula is an option - she is breaking her heart at the idea of using it. Lets see what we can do to help her breastfeed without it, eh? She clearly doesn't have to use it now so there is no panic about it!

Angel, can you do a babymoon with the computer on one side and the baby on the other?

Angel, Stick to what Tiktok said, she is the trained expert on Breastfeeding matters (we are lucky to have her on the board)

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Jodie,

"but to be honest when he was on a growth spurt I did top him up with formula. and why on earth not"

Because introducing formula will break the natural cycle of supply and demand in the exclusively breastfed baby. i.e. The whole point of a growth spurt and the baby requesting frequent feeds is to tell the breasts to make more milk, introducing formula stops this from happening.

Mix feeding might have worked well for you and your baby and I am glad it did. However not all mothers are as lucky, introducing even one bottle a formula a day, may led to a reduced milk supply and could lead to full time formula feeding, not what the OP wants nor needs.

angel, if you want to look into having the tt divided privately sooner phone a local private hospital and ask them if there is anyone who does it and what they charge. i don't think it can be much as it is so quick, would just be consultation fee.

you say you are going to kings, not sure where you live but you could try london bridge hospital.

just a thought. however, agree that feeding lots and lots is totally normal in a baby this age with or without tongue tie and best thing is just to breastfeed. it will get easier!

Angel

don't know if you are in the right part of south London, but there is a very well regarded bf support group in Deptford on a Tuesday morning - although as both the bfcs have school age children it may not run over easter.

Check out the Lewisham & Greenwich NCT site for details of this and all the other groups I was able to find on our manor.

Take care and take it a day at a time

I found it! the 'exaggerated attachment', not latch, is in the booklet called 'A Mother's Guide to Breastfeeding' Issue 7. It is in the antenatal pack from my GP's surgery which I got a few weeks ago when I registered at my surgery because I am, erm, pregnant. So it must be the latest edition.

I have found a link for it hereon page 7. it took ages to load and i was worried it wouldn't.

oops, sorry, page 7 - 9. like i said, I trust what Tiktok says but no use me keeping this kind of knowledge to myself and it may be another string to your bow.

good luck.

Just wanted to add my support, it sounds like you are doing brilliantly in the scheme of things and should feel proud of yourself for getting this far. My ds also had a tongue tie when he was born and I struggled to bf him. Luckily it sorted itself out and he didn't need it snipped but at the time I thought I'd never be able to bf exclusively and would have to resort to formula. I remember feeling so sore and would be in tears dreading every feed. However, things did improve and I took it one day at a time. I didn't give formula in the end and am so pleased I didn't because my ds is now 7 months and I'm still bf, something I thought I'd never achieve! Anyway, what I'm trying to say is just take it one feed at a time and try and hold off the formula until your son has had the snip as I'm sure things will improve dramatically. I only say this because all my friends that introduced formula found that it did affect their supply and had to stop bf before they wanted to. Of course if you do want to give formula its up to you and don't feel guilty because you've done bloody well, just something to bear in mind! Good luck!!

Angel, I just wanted to post quickly to say keep up the good work! My friend's LO was tt and she struggled with BF, the HV continually going on about lack of weight gain but not helping her get the tt cut was particularly unhelpful. She fought hard for it though (I don't think they like doing it round here) but they went ahead and she saw an immediate improvement in the feeding and LO was able to get more rewards for his efforts. I really hope this is the case for you too, good luck.

And get some blimin' sleep! x

kiskidee, congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi ladies,

Just to keep you all updated on the progress... I will probably get shot to death for this! Anyway, after a lot of tears today and also DS being permanently attached to me for about 3 hours to no avail, and also in the early evening, he started REALLY crying. My mother's instinct told me he was hungry. This happened before my milk came in (came in on 4th day in the evening!) and the mw in the hospital actually cup fed him formula and I did that the following night as well as it was clear he wasn't being satisfied by whatever little colostrum he is getting. Anyway, in that instance, we only did it twice with two very small thimbleful of formula and when my milk came in, everything was fine...

I have to admit I finally caved as I could tell LO was in real distress and no amount of breast was doing any good. Believe me, I tried like like you would not believe... We gave him 2 oz of formula in a bottle (I tried cap feeding first but he was too distressed to lap it!) and he drank it all and you could tell from the look on his face that he was finally being satisfied. He went into a deep sleep after that... I felt really bad but because he missed one feed, I managed to express a decent amount of milk which I am going to give him instead of formula, which I just did when he woke up... in a bottle! I am sad in a way but in another way, I am glad I did it as my instinct with regards to his hunger was correct. I was on the verge of a mental breakdown and even having that 1.5 hours of sleep just now while DS was sleeping was bliss after 4 days of constant fussing and crying and me being in distress about everything.

Tomorrow morning, I am going to try and give him the breast again (when I have partially regained my sanity) and in the meantime, I am going to express like a demon to avoid ever having to go down the formula route again. I know this isn't to everyone's taste but I am trying to be honest. I have really tried my darnest to satisfy him but it was obvious he was getting really distressed as he couldn't get what he needs just by bf-ing... I know some of you might disagree and I am still not sure I did the right thing but for now, I know my LO is not crying out of hunger and honest to god, I have done my best!

Ax

thanks chip. now if i could only feel like a human again. how far along are you?

If your LO is happy, and you are happy, then you have done the right thing. You need to do what works for you - and if that is expressing till the tt gets snipped, then great, if you have to give formula again then so be it. Don't think people here will judge you for giving formula; I'm sure everyone is just trying to give you positive support to feed your child in the way that works for you. That said, I hope you do manage to perservere with bf as it sounds like that is what you really want to do, and as a new mum in her 7th week of bf, I can tell you it does get easier. Good luck!

oh love, you don't have to justify yourself. And having given formula/a boztle does not mean you are inevitably on the slippery slope - although arguably the more often you give ff/bottles the harder work it is to get back to exclusive bf.* Hopefully hings will improve with the tongue-tie snip. In the meantime, bf and express as much as you can - try to avoid giving a bottle instead of a bf.

*My ds1 was mixed fed for his first 4 weeks, then excl bf to 6.5 months and is bf to this day, with his third birthday approaching and his little brother bf too Tiktok's advice had no small part in this, so listen to her!

kiskidee! did I know this? congratulations! If you are small you can have my Maursupi (they are sized by parental size)

All these pg announcements - I'm BROODY here (she says with 6mo on her lap )

no bero, it isn't well known because i was freaking out about it for ages and could hardly admit it to myself. i am finally coming to terms with it at around 12 wks.

wow. impressed with marsupi sized by parental. yes i am small. 162cm but slight of bone and meat. how much? i have a tettitet which is beautiful. fits great but also loadsa money because it is made in norway - still worth it though and would like another when the budget can stretch to it.

sorry to hijack angel.

a lot of babies have had formula in times like these and have then gone on to bf exclusively again. no one has the right to stand in judgement. you will have this tt fixed and we will be here to keep cheering you on.

It should fit you perfectly then - I am 158cm and a 12. I'm still using it atm but CAT me and you can have it when we move to our Manduca. No charge, my pressie If no. 3 announces itself at any point (not soon, though!) I'll ask to borrow it back.

Angel, Don't stress about your decision love, it doesn't have to be the slippery slope if you don't want it to be... The important thing in such early says is to keep the supply up. I think you need to be stimulating your breasts every 3 hours or so at this stage so if he's not feeding that often then keeping expressing is the right thing to do if you do want to continue BF.

I'm sure it will get loads easier when the TT is dealt with. And indeed if your boy is less hungry he might be more patient with the BF. i've given the odd bottle or cup of formula recently when my boy (lots older than yours) went on nursing strike. i was worried it would be the end of BF, and it hasn't been, he's back just BF now (when he isn't chugging carrots and yoghurt that is!)

Things are different in the early stages though and you do need to remember the supply and demand thing needs to keep going, even when it feels utterly gruelling.

Best of luck with it all and well done!

Angel - Just wanted to add a word of support.

I was in a similar position to you - with dd on the same centiles as your LO. She's ten weeks now and still is.

At first I had a HV who was obsessed with the growth charts. Even when dd put on 200g in a weeks she said, 'oh dear, she's still on the shaded part of the chart' as if THAT was the important thing. She sadi some other really dreadful things which I won't repeat but she made me feel as awful and tearful as you have been at points, so I understand where you're coming from.

I was persuaded to 'top up' through fear. I'm still using a little bit of formula mixed with bm, which is not ideal but have never really made it back. DD is 10 weeks now and putting on good weight. Anyway, that's NOT my point.

Just wanted to say. The mixed feeeding means that my concerns about supply never really go away, so it's not an answer to your feeling anxious. I am still worried about any changes in her feeding or if i get less milk when I express. So introducing formula won't necessarily make you worry less.

Secondly, I know how it feels when everyone is telling you to do something. You are really brave to stick it out. You have to do what you think is best for your baby. I was devastated and so under confident when DH wanted me to use formula.

However, we had a period of time (4 days)when I was giving only formula top ups (due to having norovirus) and the baby only put on 80g. Then we had another 4 days when I only gave ebm top ups and the baby put on 180g. Since then DH has switched allegiances to bm against all comers and it feels fab, so I just wanted to share the statistic with you to encourage you.

I wish you the best of luck.

kiskidee congratulations!
Angel, glad your lo is more settled. lol at expressing like a demon!
did you get anywhere with bringing the snip forward? if not, only a few days left