Guess who got banned from the breastfeeding support group ?

[BabiesEverywhere]

ME !!!

Haven't been for a few weeks, due to illness and Christmas stuff and they were closed a couple of weeks.

Turned up this morning to be asked straight away for a private word by the HCA. She regrets to inform me that they are changing the rules as to age of children permitted at the group. I asked how old, but they have not decided yet. (I suspect it will be the age of my child) So apparently my time is limited at this group

She said she knew I had been talking about her, I clarified that I had sent a letter to her boss asking for more training for her, as she had no idea what she was talking about regarding breastfeeding and was telling all the women to do things which damaged the potential for women to continue breastfeeding. I said she was a nice woman who can run a group well etc, but her knowledge was outdated and in many cases wrong. I re-offered to pass on information, books and studies so she can educate herself, I won't be holding my breath.

So a short time later, we return back to the group. One mother in a great amount of distress came straight to me asking me for information on her problem, which I can't give her as I'm banned from talking in this group. I suggest we go for a cuppa after the group.

This mum had been been away from her 4 month old exclusively breastfed baby during the day only for a week. Baby was struggling to latch on now and the mum thought she was losing her milk.

The HCA said that her milk had dried up and there was nothing she could do about it now and that there was nothing wrong with formula, her baby would be fine on it.

A couple of other mums had suggested expressing but the HCA was luke warm about this suggestion.

I said nothing

Later in the cafe my friend and I comfort this mum, who is panicking about having to use formula. I explain I am a formula child and if she needs to use it, it will be fine but it is much too early too worry about that.

Establish she can still 'feel the milk and let down', we gave her details of the breastfeeding support lines, Kellymom website and I mentioned the bog standard supply increasing stuff, eating oatmeal, herbs you can take like mothers tea, fenugreek(no idea if they work but some people swear by them). She liked the idea of bathing with baby and extra skin to skin time. Also suggested expressing milk onto the nipple and to stimulate letdown so the baby gets milk straight away when he latches etc (Can?t remember where I read that last bit so I hope that is correct)

I thought that really she just needed to relax, as she was so worked up about it not working she was bouncing off the walls. No wonder her child was picking up on her understandable distress. Happily just the knowledge, that it was more than possible even if her milk had gone (which it hadn't) to build it up again, cheered her up no end.

Half an hour later her son was happily nursing in the cafe.

But this kind of thing is why my friend and I feel we have to attend the group (whilst I?m not banned) That mother went from being a distress upset mum to a happy mum because we listened to her and we were confidant that this was a problem that could be overcome.

But as the HCA was so confidant that she was right and the milk had ?dried up? and had NO suggestions on how to help this mother except tell her to use formula. She sat and watched this distress mum and did not think to say. Let me look that up for you/speak to my boss to see if there is another solution etc

I am feeling very mixed up.

Happy that this mum is back on the right feeding path for her.

Cross and angry that I'm being made out to be an interfering nasty person, when all I want is for people to do the job they are paid to do.

I do mean every child matters - I'm used to shortening it to 5 outcomes.

Be healthy, stay safe, enjoy and achieve, economic well being and make a positive contribution.
You don't have to link to every one but try to link each aim of the breast feeding group to one of them. It'll most probably be the first one in many cases, but if the HCA is telling people just to give up breastfeeding without exploring all the options then you can argue that she is not acting in the spirit of ECM. Breastfeeding is far better in meeting the outcomes than formula feeding.

I will be outline the 'distressed mother thing' to the boss definately, as it was very shocking for the mother just to be told to deal with it your milk has gone and she told me she felt confused, angry and hurt that noone (i.e. the HCA)would/could help her.

My DD is 15 months old and by her own choice sits in the toy corner with all the books and toys and though toddles over to look at the babies and says 'aww, baby' is no way a distruptive child.

If that was a condition of attending, I can sling her on my back for that hour (she is happy in a sling) and therefore would not even be able to reach the babies. Or if I am forced too, I'll get a babysitter and attend on my own. Or my friend and I can take turns attending/listening and the other mum can sit in the waiting room just outside this room with both of our kids. There are always ways around these rules.

But as the HCA did not have details of the age limit and a couple other things we discussed, I will be going to the next few meeting until those things are finalised (unless the boss turns up to the next meeting)

I know many women are not happy with the group and how it runs. They don't like the way I am jumped on by the HCA and the mums have noticed the limited poor support to breastfeed disappears the moment their child reaches 4 months and then they have the weekly battle against baby rice and 'you look tired, you need to wean' comments. But as Tiktok says even if I actively encouraged those who are unhappy to complain, it would be seen as 'my influence' rather than the HCA actions.

I will be going early to the group next week and I will have a private word with the HCA with printed proof of what I am saying is truthful. I will explain the damage and upset caused to that lady last week and how even if the HCA didn't know the facts, just being supportive and saying. 'Not sure how to bring your milk supply back but I'll chat to my boss and ring you this afternoon' is better thing to do then to give out inaccuate information i.e. Your milk has dried up forever.

As for goals, I would prefer the HCA to become aware of her own information limitations. i.e. Not to make stuff up when she doesn't know the answer, be more educate in the actual facts of breastfeeding and try to be supportive to the breastfeeding women or at the very least don't run them down.

Failing that I would like another HV who is supportive of breastfeeding and has done it herself to take over the group. But the HCA's boss has already said they can not afford this option.

I also suggested to the boss that they run the group with volunteers from the local peer support group alongside the HCA (not me one of the other trained ladies, the training might be basic would it is years ahead of what the HCA knows) and I was told that the HCA didn't want or feel she didn't a helper and any such helper would have to agree with the HCA whatever she said

Or failing that sadly it would be better for the group to be disbanned. Better mums get lukewarm but better support off each other, than this strong confident 'I know better than you, even when I blatantly know nothing' crap we are currently getting off this HCA.

The main thing for getting rid of the older babies (not just me) Is that the HCA looks stupid saying you can't nurse past 4 months, when there are mums with 6,8 and 15 months old babies still being fed. She wants to be able to support new mothers straight onto mix feeding with formula from the start and then baby rice at 16 week without any other option being put forward.

Having experienced mums at the group saying 'you can make it to 6 months' or 'demand feeding works for us' and 'we didn't bother with baby rice, straight on to veg' All statements from the other mums not me, I am not allowed to talk at this group.

I'll be sending an email to her boss in the next few days. I never got a response to the complaint I sent and the boss suggested I resent it but from what the HCA said she has it anyway. No matter I will resend with this new incident on it.

I will have a look at the 'Every child matters' stuff. It rings a bell, I might have read that as part of my old job.

My original complaint to the boss outlined all the ways that the HCA was breaking the local Breastfeeding Policy which is written and campaigned for, by the Boss of the HCA.

The HCA is currently breaking every rule she could possibly break without actually enetering the hosptial (there is a section on early introduction to breastfeding in hospital section)

The Boss is known locally as a very positive supportive breastfeeding person and I am so disappointed that she has decided to concentrate more on the bigger 'baby friendly' goals and ignoring the damage this woman is doing in this area. I understand that in the big picture, the breastfeeding habits of the local women in this district doesn't amount to much, but to the women in this area having problems today it is so important to get proper support.

I knew this would be you!

I nearly cried when I read what she had said to that lady about her milk drying up.

I really admire you for sticking with it and continuing to do the right thing.

I am so for you at the way you've been treated - banning older babies ffs!

Bf support groups benefit loads and loads from having mothers with older babies / toddlers / children who are breastfeeding. Not just from the additional support and knowledge although that's a help. But also because new Mums that come to these groups with problems and difficulties that seem insurmountable see a woman feeding an older infant and think, "it does get better then" especially if that woman had early problems herself.

You're a peer supporter too aren't you? Can you set up your own group? I am a LLL peer supporter and ikwym about feeling you don't know very much. When you come on here and listen to people like tiktok who are very knowledgeable you do feel a bit like someone who once traveled by plane standing next to a Pilot, but if you think about it, in comparison to the vast majority of Mums (and HCAs ) you actually know a hell of a lot.

Certainly enough to be able to support women through some of the more common early-day problems like poor positioning / attachment, growth spurts etc. And if someone comes to you and you don't know what to do, you can refer them on to someone who does.

So I do definitely think you are more than qualified to set up your own group. If you approach your local SureStart centre to volunteer you may even get a small budget for advertising and promoting the group; you can also speak with your local community midwives and Doctors' surgeries to get them to recommend your group to new bfing Mums.

If you build it, BE, they will come.

Oh really tiktok? (re professional journals). I have no experience of hv journals, but in my old field (not medical!) there is a lot of reflection and flagging up of mistakes.

Prism: Prof journals do flag up errors, but they would not take a 'customer's' side in any dispute with a professional. I mean they report tribunals and strikings-off and so on, but Babies prob won't want to go that far........

this is even more apt

BE - read this yesterday and was too angry to post, literally shaking...
Re-read today and am so glad you are strong enough to take steps to ensure this woman does not ruin breastfeeding for too many more mothers. Heartbroken thinking about the damage she has probably already done
Good luck with everything - when is the next meeting?

P.S. - if you say where it is it is likely a few mums with older bf babies may turn up....

god can't believe this woman is still spouting her filth and nonsense!

I STILL think (though I know you hate this idea and there would of course be confidentiality issues for you...) the best solution would be to invite lots of other experienced BF mothers to the group (hmm, wonder where you could find some...? )

Even one or two to challenge her nonsense would make a difference... I'd be game if within 50-100 miles and a time I can get there...

xpost with jackstini and same evil thoughts

OMFG! I cannot believe they are going to start discriminating against extended b/feeding!

You are an absolute star babies. You really are.

Sound advice from tiktok and moondog too.

Jeez, BE!

It goes from awful to considerably worse!

Interesting that the WHO recommends bfing to at least two, yet they're likely to exclude you from this group based on you having a much younger child...

I've read your post in disbelief and anger - call me stupid but I thought the point of a breastfeeding support group was to provide support not distress for those breastfeeding. Good for you for fighting your corner and what a good thing you could help that poor woman who was told her milk had gone.

I'm up for an invasion - roughly where are you? North, South, East or West?

the best one I had at breast feeding support group was "I may not be able to prove it but i think you will find that most people in prison haven't been breast fed"... My jaw hit the flaw... but some people nodded no good if your having problems and these were HV advixing they should know a thing or too

LOL Monkeybird!
Was still thinking this morning of various things to say/show to this noxious woman.

I'm in the North I wish calling in the Calvery (i.e. Nursing Mumsnet crowd) would help the situation but it won't. It would just make the HCA and her boss sure that I am a mad nutter and anything I say or suggest is an idiot rambling on and I must be ignored and belittled until I go away.

If I continue to try and be polite and tactful (working on this bit) hopefully someone will see the light eventually.

Blush Thanks Tiktok and holidaywonk your posts made me cry, I just feel like I'm getting nowhere and all I have 'achieved' is the group is going to have a reduced membership. Though I suppose it does reduce potential victims, so maybe that can be seen as a postitive.

Hunker, Interesting you mention the WHO guidelines of 'at least 2 years breastfeeding'. I am going to ask the boss if the HCA is correct with the new rules. I am going to ask if this is a city wide policy and I would like a copy if it is.

I would like to know to what age baby will be given support to be breastfed, as I would expect that support would be given up to the minimal WHO guidelines. i.e. 2 years. If it is a younger age I would be interested to know how and why that age has been chosen.

Regarding giving support, this HCA ~thinks~ that she is supportive. She explained whilst we were having private word, that she felt that problems whilst breastfeeding, were linked to problems with mothers and babies bonding. She could be right. But her solution is push the mother onto forumla straight away. I see this as the HCA pushing her issues and opinion onto the mother and treating the mother like a child.

IMO the mother should be given all the possible information and possible options she could do, based on what she is asking for. Then the MOTHER should decide what is best for her situation NOT the HCA.

The distressed mum yesterday made it very clear that she wanted to continue breastfeeding, her child was a premmie and she had concerns about formula. Yet the HCA still rolled out the I KNOW BEST attitude and pushed formula. onto the weeping woman.

Grr

Correction the baby was born early and the mother calls him a premmie but he is 4 months old now.

How about not a mass invasion, but one or two mums of older nurslings turning up every week looking for 'advice' (ie its not actually a problem, but presenting one so they have a reason to be there)? It would show the other mums that you can feed for longer, give them a chance to mingle, and challenge the HCAs biased opinions.
You could also ask the boss that if they are introducing an age limit, what they are going to do to support full term breastfeeding.
Gah ! Its this sort of thing that makes me sooo angry ...

(post was meant to make you laugh, BabiesEv, not cry )

Staying polite and calm is always a good idea - you have information on your side. The minute you start looking like an unstable/ranty/uncontrollable rage person, is the minute you start to look less credible. Save the rage for here !

I think you got a copy of your local policy, didn't you? It's likely that this policy is PCT-wide.

Very interesting about her bonding theory ie that when people have problems breastfeeding, it means they cannot bond, and therefore they should not persist but go onto formula feeding.

You could ask her for references for that if you felt cheeky about it.

The research on this is unclear, as far as I am aware, but it maybe that she herself had issues with attachment to her own babies, and it is almost certainly the case that she has seen women struggling with attachment and having massive problems with breastfeeding as well - removing the breastfeeding can sometimes appear to be a 'solution' to the anxiety caused by trying to feed. The real solution is to prevent/treat the breastfeeding problem, and this is she is unable to do because she does not have the training. But she does know about formula feeding, so this is what she shares. You keep saying she is a nice, caring person....and I believe you. Her caring side is what permits her to 'remove' the difficult, problematic, unpredicatble breastfeeding from women, in favour of something she can help with. It is deeply disempowering to the women, of course, but this again will not be something on her radar.

Imagine what it must be like to be her - to confront her lack of knowledge means she hasn't been helping women as she thought, in fact, she has been making things worse for them and their babies....dozens if not hundreds of 'em, down the years. Better, surely, to deny this possibility.....

Thanks Tiktok

I think you are right on the ball. She definately had breastfeeding issues and bonding issues with feeding her children. But everything was brilliant when she moved to FF.

She totally thinks she helps the mothers and that I am just coming to the group to make her feel bad. She feels that she gives independant information, when in fact she orders women to do what she says.

When I explained that the mothers trusted her especially her professional standing as an expert and a HCP and when she told them, that they have to wean at 4 months and pushed baby rice into their hands. Of course they do what she tells them but they are weaning early because she pushes it on them, not because they want to and they haven't got the relevent information about weaning to enable them to make an informed choice.

But she looked confused and said she had never told anyone to wean, I explained that she done it to me. (loads of nice understanding phrases and I was more tactful than this post is) I understood she was concerned about my babies weight but even when I sat in tears begging her to give a way of carrying on breastfeeding she could only suggest formula. But she didn't remember the incident.

Sigh...she remembers things as she wants them. When I go early next week to have a chat about distressed mum and things she could of suggested to her. I bet you a tenner, she'll look blankly at me and have no idea of what I am talking about.

The local breastfeeding policy has a year as the age limit for support in breastfeeding, I assuming this is the point they will use with the group.

QUOTE where more women are given sufficient information and support to enable them to breastfeed exclusively for six months, and then as part of their infant's diet beyond the first year

That's not 'up to' a year, though, Babies, but 'beyond a year'

Ahh, well noted. {BE bangs head on wall}

Beyond first year...yep, that is where we are at