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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

how as a nation/society can we normalise bf

141 replies

robinredbreast · 07/11/2007 23:13

these boards really make for sad reading,esp all the ill informed advice thats been posted in the last few days from hv gp etc

how are we going to improve things for us and future generations?

what are your ideas?

OP posts:
morocco · 08/11/2007 10:17

lol, knowing how these thread go, can i just add a disclaimer that i'm not comparing ff to smoking

Anna8888 · 08/11/2007 10:18

There isn't "one big reason" why women choose to breast or bottle feed. There are multiple cultural factors at play and they vary from one country to another.

Here in France, where breastfeeding rates are very low indeed, short maternity leave and a high proportion of working women certainly contribute to low breastfeeding rates. Lots of women believe it isn't worth breastfeeding at all if they are going to have to return to work 10-12 weeks after giving birth. Many women are most concerned about getting their own fitness/strength back as soon as possible.

But French women have tended to outsource baby feeding for centuries. In the past, before formula was invented, babies were sent from the town to wet nurses in the countryside to allow mothers to work. This is highly documented as wet nurses pay and conditions were regulated by the state.

So the cultural factors at play in the decision not to breastfeed go beyond the existence/advertising of formula.

StealthPolarBear · 08/11/2007 10:19

rrb, yes I think you're probably right, more feeding in public would be a way to normalise it.
Can agree with the savaged by a wild animal thing, but I think it was a shame to put something like that in an anti-bf article, adds to the opinion that bf is a 'savage' thing to do.
Sorry if this malkes no sense, trying to stop DS chewing wires

morocco · 08/11/2007 10:27

where did you read that anna8888 (interested not having a go)

hunkermunker · 08/11/2007 10:30

The formula industry's worth millions. It's not in their best interest to have bf supported in any way in this country. All their work undermines it.

Yet they're trying to mimic bmilk with their product.

It's a strange situation, isn't it?

Spillage21 · 08/11/2007 10:43

The whole anti-breastfeeding thing runs so deep in this country and will run up against barriers at every level in society, be it social, economical, personal blah de blah. I think you're running into PhD territory here...and there'll still be a MNer who'll diasgree.

Just find it bizarre that women can happily talk about boob jobs, wear tit-tape with dresses down to navels, and then go all coy when presented with their own hungry baby and declare breastfeeding 'A bit weird innit'.

Good article in The Ecologist about formula about 18 months ago. Hair raising...

Bramshott · 08/11/2007 10:46

It makes me laugh when people say they don't want to see women breastfeeding because "breasts are sexual" - surely breastfeeding is WHY historically breasts are sexual - source of life and nutrition etc etc?!

Spillage21 · 08/11/2007 10:46

Just one more thing...heard from a friend currently working in SCBU that a nurse there had told her that they preferred using a certain brand of formula because it was considered just as good a breastmilk.

Er, no...nowhere even close.

mybabysinthegarden · 08/11/2007 10:50

From the variety of experiences that women on here have had, it would seem that the NHS is really lacking a consistent policy on promoting breastfeeding, or that policy is being implemented very erratically. I was lucky in that my hospital was very pro-bf and wouldn't let me leave until they were satisfied I'd got the hang of it, but my prenatal course barely skimmed the topic. I think they are perhaps reluctant to bring up the possible complications in these classes for fear of putting people off, but it would have been so helpful to have some advice on warding off mastitis, thrush, cracked nipples etc. before being stricken with them!

That is interesting about Norway including bm in their food production data. I think another reason that bf suffers is that it is not (considered) an economic product. If money were made available to 'place' it the way that products are placed on TV and in films and the media, not necessarily hyping it but just showing it happening in the manner of a visible Coke logo or supermarket carrier bag, it would go a long way towards 'normalising' it. I don't watch much TV but I have read laments on here about the prevalence of ff in soaps and so on. But as it is now, we don't exactly have the financial clout to pay Jordan to bf in OK!

I do think it's important for young kids to see bf too, I was quite struck when I was bfing how interested my nephews and nieces were in it, asking questions about it, etc. One bf book I read opined that bf not coming as 'naturally' to some of us as in the past is because we haven't grown up surrounded by it and trying it out on our baby dolls. I used to be resistant to the idea of baby dolls on the grounds that they were 'for girls' and a gender-stereotyping toy, but reading that made me think that I should get one for my dd. With no bottle. (possibly a toy boob)

Finally, I think the WHO guidelines of exclusive bf for the first six months can be pretty off-putting to mums who envision six months without a single break from their darlings. I hate to dredge up 'Bringing up baby' again, but the single mum on there seemed to say that she had chosen ff because she needed outside help, as if there was no way that bf was compatible with having someone else look after her baby occasionally. I know that exclusive bf is the ideal, but if the advice in this country were changed to 'as much bf as possible' in the first six months, mums might feel more comfortable finding their own way and what works for them. The guidelines are, after all, from the World Health Organisation, whereas we are fortunate enough to live in a country where the occasion bottle of ebm or even formula is unlikely to be lethal. Whatever mners say.

tiktok · 08/11/2007 10:55

at rrb!

UK bf stats on web - google is your friend Search Infant Feeding 2005 on DoH website.

Wet nursing was common at least until end of 19th century in France even among the middle classes (not just aristocracy) but never universal.

Throughout history, there have been groups of women who have not breastfed for social choice reasons (or 'choice').

I don;t know how to turn it round - less interested in the women who really don't want to breastfeed, to be honest, than the ones who want to and then find their experience is sabotaged. If the 80 per cent who want to, then continue for as long as they want, then some of the 20 per cent who don't want to do it because in their surroundings it's odd, or crazy, will see it as normal.

weeonion · 08/11/2007 11:03

the dept health has commissioned a new dvd on breastfeeding. it will be given to all pg women around 20wks via antental appts. It will also be shown in waiting rooms. there will be a supporting website as well.

the idea is to show as much bf as possible and throgh using womens experiences - answer some of teh concerns / questins of others.
it will be interesting to see it all when it is completed.

we have been filmed nd are taking part in it - they have been following us fro a wee while now, looking at how it bf is going.

tiktok · 08/11/2007 11:09

WHO guidelines are not for mothers, mybabysinthegarden. WHO does not 'speak' directly to mothers. They are for governments and public health departments to encourage them to enable women to breastfeed exclusively for six months in order to reduce the adverse health effects of formula. Seems to me to make perfect sense - look at what is stopping mothers from doing this in your own country/locality, and put in place measures to help it happen (maternity leave, workplace creches, no formula promotion, better training for HCPs, illegal to harrass bf mothers) so the barriers are removed.

Then when these institutional and cultural barriers are removed, women will be enabled to breastfeed for as much as they want to.

Even the current UK guidance 'recommends' rather than 'orders' exclusive breastfeeding, IIRC, and why wouldn't it? Why would it not be right to share best knowledge about this? It's up to HCPs on the ground to help mothers achieve this and if it turns out that 'some' breastfeeding becomes the reality rather than 'only' breastfeeding for some mothers, then they need to know this is a possibility and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. That's a message that can be tailored to individual mother's needs, while leaving the health recommendation clear.

What's not to like ?

Anna8888 · 08/11/2007 11:27

morocco - I live in France (so know a lot about what happens here anecdotally) and on the historical issue I have a great article if you want to read it, but it's in French - do you read French?

BabiesEverywhere · 08/11/2007 11:30

You can roughly translate an article from French to English using online translaters like this one

Anna8888 · 08/11/2007 11:35

BabiesEverywhere - I just tried translating a bit of the aforementioned article on your link and the result was somewhat painful

BabiesEverywhere · 08/11/2007 11:43

LOL, very rough translator then ;)

NappiesShnappiesPANTSgalore · 08/11/2007 11:47

" By morocco on Thu 08-Nov-07 10:14:32
I'd like to see the message changed from bf is best/good for you to ff is inferior/not as good for you. bf being the default option. the same 'positive' approach to healthy eating hasn't worked either - not just that people don't eat more healthily but still don't know that eating unhealthily can cause cancer and early death, cos that's not what the ads say, is it. so we could have better publicity for the disadv/neg health benefits of ff rather than more publicity of the adv/health benefits of bf. to nick a phrase/paraphrase from the abm I think, we don't put ads on cigarettes saying 'fresh air is best for your lungs' "

i actually completely agree with that.

anti-natal classes called 'feeding your baby, and the risks of ff' should be the norm. seems the right emphasis to me.

and the whole guilt thing for those who gave up unhappily... im really truly sorry that you feel bad about it. but dont let that get in the way of helping future mothers.

BabiesEverywhere · 08/11/2007 12:01

But look what happened when a set of adverts were commissioned to say the negative health risks associated with NOT breastfeeding...

Milk Money Video

...it was squashed and the message diluted until the advert company no longer wanted to be associated with such a poor advert.

BabiesEverywhere · 08/11/2007 12:01

American video BTW

margoandjerry · 08/11/2007 12:02

I think you should make it all about how great bf is and just not mention FF. I think the BF people should stop getting so wound up about FF and just focus on the good points of BF. (FWIW I mixed fed because I had a lot of problems getting BF started and FF helped us get through to a stable BF routine so I am grateful to it).

After all, the 5 fruit and veg a day campaign is all about how good that is, not about saying "mmm have a lovely apple not a really yucky horrible evil cake".

I also think a little honesty about it would help - "it can be hard but you'll really be glad you did it in the end" type thing.

I really worked hard to bf and got there in the end but if I'm really honest, the bf campaigns didn't really work for me. I can't quite put my finger on it but I find the environment around the pro bf campaign quite off-putting. It runs the risk of being smug and of making bf seem like the be all and end all. And then as if bf isn't enough we have to push people into exclusive bfing for six months at least. Let's focus on baby steps, imho. Just encouraging people to start and to get past the first few weeks would be great.

I know I'll get flamed for this but the OP asked for ideas. I think the BF campaigners need to be open to the idea that the tenor of the campaign at the moment is wrong.

[ducks]

Anna8888 · 08/11/2007 12:10

I'm actually fascinated when I read the breastfeeding versus bottlefeeding threads because I never encountered the slightest bit of prejudice/difficulty/misinformation whatsoever in the UK, where I had all my (100% NHS) antenatal care, gave birth and spent the first few months of my daughter's life. I never "decided" to breastfeed - it was just going to happen. I remember the HV asking me vaguely whether I was going to breastfeed - in terms that she suggested that she assumed quite clearly that I was going to. And that was that.

All the women around me and in my family breastfeed/breastfed. I don't think it occurs to anyone not to. So there are definitely pockets/segments of the UK population today where breastfeeding is normalised.

In France, however, I know a lot of women who don't/didn't breastfeed.

margoandjerry · 08/11/2007 12:12

I was exactly like you Anna888 so I think you are right that the expectation is very often there.

I just had problems that I didn't expect and that no one was really set up to help me with which is why I suddenly entered the world I didn't want to be in (the FF world).

hunkermunker · 08/11/2007 12:16

MAJ, I'm open to the idea that some of the bf promotion stuff hits the wrong note atm. I've posted similarly in the past.

I also always challenge smuggery or unkindness where I see it re bf, because it helps nobody.

There are, without a doubt, some bfers who do more harm than good with their bleatings about bf. I've met some of them and I find their holier-than-thou worthy judgement stomach-churning in the extreme.

But I don't think you can run a bf campaign without talking about formula - there'd be criticism for that as well. What you can do is talk about it all, kindly, with the understanding that not everybody brings the same feelings and experiences to parenthood.

Anna8888 · 08/11/2007 12:18

M&J - my daughter also had a few formula feeds in her first 48 hours - her blood sugar dropped dangerously low as she vomited a lot for the first couple of days (she'd swallowed a lot of gunk on her way out) and wasn't getting any nourishment. The hospital were very kind and were ready to sit down and help me through the process of letting formula into my precious baby's mouth - but I was completely OK with that too, I understood she needed the formula to stay alive.

And I gave her formula in a little cup from time to time towards the end of the sixth month period, and always let her drink formula from a cup when I went out and left her between the sixth and eleventh months, when I started giving her cow's milk.

I had no "issues" about giving her a bit of formula when necessary - very useful it was too

francagoestohollywood · 08/11/2007 12:34

I'd like to echo what Anna said, I had nothing but support re b/feeding both in Italy (where I had ds) and here in the UK, where dd was born.