bf in the news again, for increasing intelligence

[robinredbreast]

so far its been on bbc1
radio 1
yahoo homepage

three cheers for breast feeding

also i thought alison baum who was interview on bbc1 put the message across so well, so tactfully done

well done alison,ive already signed your bf manifesto

Um... rude was the person who told me I was talking shite!! Having spent the day being called a poo-poo head, I feel that is the final straw...

I agree with TheYoungVisiter. I strongly believe that it is up to each mum to make her own decision but that it is important that every mum has the right info and support to enable them to make that decision (whichever way they decide).

The key issue for me in my own experience was how little support and help I got in hospital after having my DS (9 months). I definitely wanted to bf and the hospital claimed to be pro bf. However, following an initial good experience with DS bfing straight after birth, the MWs were extremely unhelpful (especially as I had DS 3 weeks early before having my antenatal class on bf so had very little idea what I was doing and was going purely on instinct). One just said to me when I asked for help on the second night because DS was crying and frantic on the breast "He is hungry. You need to give him formula." (I refused as I couldn't believe that was right and she then just went off in a huff - I now know the second night thing is normal but then I was really worried). This was compounded by fact that DS was then found to have jaundice and we ended up spending 10 days in hospital being made to feel that this was somehow my fault for not being able to feed him enough to counteract the jaundice(despite the fact that my milk hadn't even come in yet) and being forced by the drs to ff as part of his treatment on the basis that they couldn't measure how much milk he got if I bf and that made life too difficult for them. I had to fight to bf as well despite the fact that they ignored this when working out how much milk he had had (seeing it as just unwanted and unneeded extra milk on top of the ff) and were v unhelpful. When I had trouble with one breast one MW came in when I asked for help and tried to force DS's head onto my breast and hold it there really roughly. He became extremely upset, as did I. She clearly had no idea what she was doing. I had to fight all the way to keep bf and to keep my milk up by expressing as well to counteract the ff. It was horribly stressful. I finally got to see a bf counsellor the day I left hospital and she was lovely. We just need more of them. Happily for me, despite the early beginnings (followed by HV's trying to tell me to top up with ff and to wean early because DS was feeding too often - neither of which I did)I am still bfing DS now and DS is doing really well (75th percentile for weight and 95th for height).

My SIL had a similar experience in the same hospital. She had a C-Section and on the 2nd night the MWs took her DS away to give her a rest and without even asking her gave him a bottle of formula. She was distraught as had wanted to bf and she thought (and noone told her otherwise) that as her DS had had a bottle she then wouldn't be able to bf and so gave up. She was very upset that this choice had been taken away from her. Thankfully for her second DS she has had a lot more support (from a different hospital) and is bfing him and doing really well.

It makes me so angry that women who want to bf are having their choices taken away from them by uncaring or ill informed MWs and/or HVs. I know MWs are overworked but there is no excuse for the kind of attitudes I encountered in hospital. We need much more support for mums who want to bf and lots more bfing counsellors.

We don't need a witchhunt for mums who choose to ff.

Sorry for rant. Would be interested to hear what other experiences people have had along these lines.

"I stand by it: whether you bottle-feed or breast-feed is nobody else's business"

Nelly, no-one is contradicting that - not sure why you are so angry about this report? All they have done is report fact, whether or not you choose to act on the information is of course entirely up to you. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

3andnomore, I totally agree with your point, but the fact that they have been able to link this IQ rise to a specific gene would suggest that it's not purely due to the environmental/social issues surrounding breast-feeding, because those babies who were breast-fed but lacked the gene did not show the same rise. If it was mainly down to maternal intelligence/class or whatever, then all bf babies would presumably have shown the same link, regardless of gene. But I'd be interested to know how they controlled for that factor, which must be an issue.

Louplet sorry to hear about your experience. I had DS in a very pro-bf hospital but they were also pretty clueless, albeit well-meaning. Luckily it worked out for us in the end, but it was v stressful.

TheYoungVisiter - there's another thread about this study (actually it's the one I meant post my question about the 2006 on, but I got it confused with this one - not my fault I was bottle fed ). I don't know how to link to it but it's called "Breast and bottle feeding: The recent breastfeeding/IQ study: I've read it, which is more than some journalists have done..." and welliemum does a really good summary of it. The controls against confounding factors like maternal intelligence seem to have been very carefully done (I'm no scientist but think welliemum is and she seemed impressed). I'm off to the other thread to find out more...

Apols for robust language, nelly, but by God, you deserve it

Your arguments are still poor and you are extraordinarily unsympathetic to people who have described their own distressing experiences of being prevented from breastfeeding. 'Why do people have to beat themselves up about this?' is akin to 'For goodness sake pull yourself together' ....and it's just crazy to ridicule reearch simply because your family do not fit the template. No one is saying people who are not breastfed or who are born in the summer are 'idiots', anyway.

No one is saying how you feed is anyone else's business, but it is a public health issue to enable mothers who want to breastfeed to do so.

I certainly don't mean to be unsympathetic to any mother who's struggling with feeding, whether it be by breast or bottle. I think the reason these surveys all get my goat is that they all - unintentionally or not - do manage to make mothers feel bad for one reason or another, and that is something we should fight against. It is so, so easy to make mums feel bad about everything from feeding to education to working/not working ... the list goes on ad infinitum. I don't mean that these reports shouldn't be published: if there is good evidence, then we should know about it. However, the objective facts never remain objective facts: they invariably get used to pressurise women one way or the other. I was personally pressurised to breastfeed by doctors, nurses, midwives and even my husband, when I was in such a dreadful state that I could barely feed myself, never mind produce an adequate milk supply for a starving 10-pound baby. I was told (and I kid you not)that I would reduce his intellect, expose him to infections, render him obese, and increase his chances of suffering from allergies. I was not able to think clearly at the time, and just felt rubbish. It was only with my second child - whom I didn't want to breastfeed after the first week - that I came to the conclusion that it was easier to lie to the midwives/health visitors about my feeding practices, just to stop them pressurising me, and that loving mums have nothing to feel bad about. So what I fear is that this 'public health issue' will be used by some - not all - professionals as yet another stick to beat exhausted, pained, post-natal women with. Of course women who want to breastfeed should be given every encouragement - but not at the expense of women who either can't breastfeed or simply don't want to breastfeed.

But this is precisely the problem that I'm trying to highlight. Yes, I knew all the benefits of breastfeeding - but I still did not want to breastfeed my second baby. I was offered support with breastfeeding, and was heavily criticised by the hospital and community midwives when I turned it down in favour of a bottle. There's an assumption that people who don't want to breastfeed either need further education or further support - but that's not necessarily the case. Some women just don't want to breastfeed. The assumption that they're all just ill-educated is a myth. I know this is difficult for many women to accept. So far as the 'public health issue' is concerned, I'd say that we are brewing up for a really serious public health issue for this generation of children: a mental health issue for children who are nurseried from babyhood; who have their entire lives scheduled by their parents; who come home to empty houses as teenagers; and who will never experience childhood as a time of freedom, boredom, and being firmly rooted with a carer (be it Granny, Dad, Mum, nanny or even older siblings or cousins) in their own homes. This, to my mind, is far more problematic for the whole of society than how a baby is fed.

nelly, I can understand why you are piqued by this bf-ing malarky.

You understand the benefits of bf-ing, you were offered support at hospital and at home. You still chose not to bf - an educated decision on your part. I say fair play to you. You are well within your rights and everyone else should now back off.

I believe Tiktok will agree with this.

But to then go on to say that a respected report on the benefits of bf-ing (intelligence in this case) just goes to make people feel guilty about bf-ing when really bf-ing is not a big deal (after all you and your son are still very intelligent despite being ffed - subjective anecdotal evidence of 2). In fact all research is dodgy and there are greater evils in this world (like children in nursery - the dangers of derive from other studies BTW, so these are accurate, are they? Is that because you chose not to put your own in a nursery?) ...

That's just throwing your toys out of your pram. And speaks of sour grapes. To spoil what could be a lovely experience for other women and their babies, if they were given more support, just because you chose not to and got irritated with hospital staff and family who disagreed (I do agree they should not have belaboured the point with you after it is clear you made your mind up).

I do agree that women who have made a choice to bottle feed should not feel pressurised or criticised. The health effects of infant feeding are not the only factor in someone's decision - their own assessment of what works best for them plays a part as well.

But there is a major issue of information here. There is a large body of research (using well-controlled studies) that confirms that how you feed your baby has a long-lasting effect on health. Now, nelly may not think this is a public health issue, because she doesn't really believe the research shows much at all. But she's wrong - the 'breastfeeding effect' can reduce inequalities in health asociated with poverty, for instance, and long-term protection against heart disease alone could save the country a lot of money in health care. There has been some interesting work done on how much the NHS could save on hospital admmissions of infants in the first year of life with an increase in breastfeeding.

I care about getting value for money for my taxes, and I care about mothers having access to information about the health effects of infant feeding. Good care does not mean using this as a stick to beat women with - but the info you were given about the increase in risks of a range of conditions was correct, and yet it sounds as if it was given insensitively and at the wrong time. The fact your baby was 10 pounds is irrelevant - the fact you were already made distressed at feeding him is not, and you should have been given help long before you became upset.

I fear we are at a rather hopeless impasse here! I just can't help feeling that there's a patronising edge to some people's conviction (and I do not mean blueshoes or tiktok here, lest they feel accused!) that education and support will make everyone see the light and come round to the 'right' way of thinking. I guess I fear and dislike all ideologies - and for some people, breastfeeding is an ideology.
Nursery: I only mention this as it's something I've researched in some considerable depth in a professional capacity. And I do believe - not based on research - that children who are never really parented will not know how to be parents in their turn. Of course, you could say that this may save them from a load of rubbish parenting (like mine was today). But I am rather off the topic here, so shall not waffle further!

Hi everyone - been away 4 days and the debate continues.

FACT - breastmilk contains benefits that fm does not.
FACT - breastfeeding is INCREDIBLY hard work. It is incredibly draining both physically and emotionally and is not an easy committment for a mother to make and then persevere with.
FACT - reports like this make me realise why, 9 weeks in, I have gritted my teeth and persevered through my most tired and drained.

I have no issues with how people feed their children, in all honesty I dont care. But for those parents who are FF - please take a moment to consider what mothers who are breastfeeding go through. And whilst these reports may not make you feel great, please appreciate that it makes our hardwork and committment seem totally worthwhile. And for that reason alone - the publisation of positive reports like this HAS to continue.

Nelly, I absolutely support your decision to feed your child in the way that's right for you, and would never criticise you for that.

But I don't think that it is patronising to suggest that women should have access to the full facts about the benefits of breast-feeding before making a decision about how to feed their child. You obviously knew exactly what you were doing when you decided to bottle-feed. You weighed up the information you had received and still decided in favour of bottle-feeding. That is of course fine. But many/most mothers who decide to bottle-feed do not have access to the same information sources; if the health professionals who see them on delivery/antenatally don't inform them about the facts then who will? Certainly not the formula companies.

Any health professional who sees a patient making a decision that may be disadvantageous to their health has a duty to make sure they fully understand the facts before they proceed. Not to do so would be irresponsible. Of course if that spills over into intolerable pressure or emotional blackmail then they have gone too far. But there is nothing wrong with stating the facts to people before they make an irrevocable decision - you seem to be suggesting that women shouldn't be allowed to make an informed decision, and that studies like this should be suppressed purely because they don't co-incide with your personal views.

PS thank you Kittock! off to nose on the other thread...

I wish you'd been my health visitor, young visiter!
I still think we're begging a lot of questions. If we're supposing that the majority of bottle-feeders don't have access to the information, are we not making some kind of tacit link between bottle-feeding and not-being-educated-middle-class? Are there any statistics on social class and feeding methods, I wonder?

nelly - stats on social class and breastfeeding???? Yes - mountains of them!

Social class and bf-ing take-up rates? I don't know an area that is more split along class lines than this. Not just from studies, but the most casual anecdotal observation.

In my Sure Start baby massage class, most of the middle class mothers had bf-ed, though many also of course mix feed and/or stop a few months later. The only 2 mothers who did not attempt were not middle class (I assumed from their accents, sorry) and made throwaway comments like ugh ... It is not really that common to see mothers from thir group bf, which is why my health visitor was so proud when she described a teenage mother breezily bf-ing her baby.

But of course, huge generalisation. It is up to each mother to choose, PROVIDED they have the right information and societal models and support. The lower classes (hate that term) far more than the educated middle classes.

Okay, I just can't resist but add my two pence...

Studies like this help me feel supported to persevere with bf. I work M-F, 9-5. I pump two to three times a day amidst a busy schedule and an office full of men so I can continue to bf. This is a huge commitment, particularly since DS also loves feeding throughout the night, so I don't get as much sleep as I might if I ff (and DH could help with bottles, etc.). It's not easy, but with information like this I am armed to feel that it is worth it.

Having read this I now feel guilty not only for failing to bf but also for putting DD in nursery full time. I'm sure she will now grow up to be an obese, allergy ridden thicko with severe abandonment issues, poor social skills, a gaming addiction and an inability to look after any children she might choose to have.

And the very fact that I can write that piece of ridiculous nonsense illustrates my point, which is this. Everyone should have access to information and support to guide and help them in their choices. No-one should be made to feel guilty for taking a reasoned decision. The problem with pieces of research is when those who choose to take sides in any debate use them to beat others over the head. Just because something is right for you does not mean that others should do what you do or what you think is right. So why don't we all lay off each other?

What we should get exercised about is why people are not given the support and information, not what they choose to do with it.

And Dal21 - congrats on hanging on in there with the bf. I ended up ff (let's not go there) and certainly appreciate what you go through. I bet most mums who end up ff after wanting to bf would.

Bluey dragon - couldnt agree more - very well put.

Roro - hats off to you! not sure even my committment would match yours!

i think this should make it even more important to have easily accessable mother's milk banks...

the higherarchy should be:

1. Mother's Breastmilk
2. Another mother's breastmilk
3. Formula on prescription

shocked that it was the Daily Mail who put the issue on the front page (whoo hooo!).

No....not formula on prescription. Allowing doctors to get involved with infant feeding was a disaster in the first place. Mothers should decide, with the right input on breastfeeding support, of course.

Doctors do not know about infant feeding. To put them in a position of having to know which babies need/don't need formula is crazy, sorry.

Of course milk banks should be more accessible to all.