Feel very low

[Stefka]

I had the breast feeding counsellor out yesterday and a breast feeding support worker out today. Both thought my latch was fine. I managed to get through the night but while the support worker was here a bit of my nipple came right off. Feeds are just too painful. I am going to try and express today and cup feed him or feed him from a spoon.

I feel totally wretched - I so badly want to breast feed but things just seem to get worse and worse. I spent most of the time that the support worker was here in tears. I don't know how much longer I can go on

Bumping for you Stefka, I'm no expert but hopefully one of the BF gurus will be along in a sec

No advice - just support and admiration for your determination and perseverance. I hope you get the help you need - it seems unlikely that the latch can be "fine" if it has caused such damage. How old is your lo?

Stefka,

you need to give us some more details. How old is your LO? Are you excl bfing etc?

Are you using nipple shields already?

Let's try and get this sorted.

Stefka, I am so for you. I don't know which organisation the breastfeeding counsellor was from, but I hope it wasn't NCT as we would never say 'your latch is fine' to someone as badly damaged as you.

You need more help in real life....but in the meantime, it is ok to express, possibly by hand if the pump damages the nipple as well, and you can keep up your supply that way. Don;t be too scared to use a bottle, either - spoon/cup feeding a baby is not necessarily any better, believe me, and it takes ages.

Someone who knows what they are talking about needs to sit with you for as long as you want, and help you get the baby back on, but it is fine to arrange this for a couple of days' time....you can have a break from direct bf if it is too horrible for you.

Stay in touch.

Im no expert but when i couldnt supply enough bm for my son i really gave myself a hard time.My midwife just said i dont care how or where this baby get his milk from the main thing is he is getting enough.So i went over to formula and never looked back.Everybody will give you conflicting advice but trust yourself and go with what feels right.Good luck.x

Please try not to get yourself all upset. Breast feeding does not always come as easily to some as to others and imo what is really important in which ever way you decide to feed your baby is that both your baby and you are happy.
If you can keep on trying with some more expert advice thats great. But also at the end of the day if you do decide that you can't continue then formula feeding is just fine as well. I think we all beat ourselves up about the feeding thing far too much. As long as your baby is happy and thriving and you (and the rest of your family are happy too)thats whats important. Please don't spend hours and hours crying. Hope it all gets better soon. How old is your baby by the way?

Thanks - I never anticipated it all being so hard. Is it really ok to use a bottle? I am terrified of messing things up after going through all this pain. A spoon does seem a bit complicated though. I am just about to try it for the first time - I will let you know how it goes.

Yes, it is really ok to use a bottle. Stefka, I have supported many women through this sort of thing, and mums need to know there is no good research to show babies are any less likely to go back to the breast after a bottle than after a cup or spoon - most babies transition back to the breast without problems, believe me, if it;s done gently and patiently

Well he took it from a spoon anyway so that's good. He is ten days old and I have just breast fed until now. I am still waiting for test results for thrush. They were meant to be ready today but not getting them until tomorrow now.

It was an NCT counselor I saw yesterday. She gave me some good tips for getting him on easier but it still hurt like hell. I also tried a nipple shield with the support worker today but it was still painful. I have to say it was nice to do a feed without being in agony - it was nice just to enjoy my baby.

It's a bit messy though - oh and he is crying now - crap.

I'm glad the counsellor helped - and she didn't say the latch looked fine, or she wouldn't have tried to help you change it

It's good he took a nice feed off the spoon, and I hope things get better.....it's not a bad thing to take a break from bf direct when things are as bad as they are.

She told me she didn't think the latch was my problem and to call back once I get my test results. The worker today also said it wasn't the latch - she put him on herself and it still hurt like hell.

I have silverette - trying them out today. Hopefully they will help.

OK, not sure, then, Stefka...I would always assume the attachment can be improved when nipples are as badly damaged as yours so early on, but I wasn't there!

Hang on in there

(Must say, when I read the worker had 'put him on herself' I at first thought she was doing the feeding for you!!! Eeek! )

I'll keep asking people to check it just in case. He's not happy with the spoon so it looks like I will have to use a bottle

stefka - just a quick note to say please follow tictoks advice and do not at all worry about feeding from a bottle. My LO was fed from a bottle for the first 3/4 days and has breastfed with no problems whatsoever once he was a little older and had more energy to get the volume of milk he needed.
give yourself the break - relax, IMO bottle/ breast confusion does not exist.

Stefka. This sounds very similar to my experience. The pain was terrible. I used to cry with it at every feed. Turns out that it was undiagnosed thrush in my milk ducts (I had cut up very badly in the early days). am now feeding DS2 and you know what... it isn't actually supposed dto be that sore after all! Hopefully if it is thrush you can get some fluconozole and knock it on the head.

Hi - I posted above for different reasons/problems but I have been exactly there where you are three times - everyone says latch is OK but lumps of nipple skin fall off and nipples bleed etc...

I would say give it one more 24 hour period before going for the bottle or at least remember that you will have to build up the supply later if giving bottles now.

I healed my nipples quite quickly by using Lansinoh while feeding and in between stuff called Jelonet from the chemist. This is a gauze soaked in vaseline and basically you buy it and then cut it up into small squares about 1.5 inches square. I did a few and left them in the fridge wrapped in silver foil so I could replace after each feed. This heals quickly on the principle of moist healing which is widely regarded as best advice for quick healing of v tender nipples(ie you don't want a scab falling then abrading off, leaving another unhealed patch)
Dry healing is not recommended by most experts.

This was on the advice of a Breastfeeding Network phone counsellor - I've always found their help to be excellent. People might be able to see the latch from the outside but don't necessarily see what's going on on the inside... the BFN person asked me some useful questions about whether my nipple was being distorted after baby fed and this cracked the problem for me. Is your nipple coming out of baby's mouth looking squashed or flatten or sloping? mine looked like a pointy mountain looking down at them from above, but with a more gentle slope on the armpit side and a steeper slope on the cleavage side - this meant - accordingto the BFM counsellor - that baby was too far over towards the armpit and not over towards cleavage enough - in other words he was too far 'up' on the nipple. Being further back towards cleavage means baby has to reach more and tip head back more which feels strange if you've been used to a different position. I don't know if this will help but please be assured that a better latch (whatever your previous advisers said) and some between-feeding healing will sort out your pain almost immediately. It might be thrush (I've had that too) but not necessarily. The latch is right when it isn't hurting not necessarily when it looks right. Try Jack Newman's website www.drjacknewman.com for really great advice support and breastfeeding videos also.

also make sure baby is well supported behind the neck (but not too much - I had a problem with my dominant hand pushing baby too far over on one side - see above!) and propped up enough so he/she is not pulling your nipple downwards - do you need more pillows under the baby?

And if you're feeling really determined and it still hurts, here's my best tips for getting through it:

1. feel free to swear when they latch on - it helps!
2. get other half to put arm round you at start of each feed till it stops hurting
3. get a stash of chocolates to incentivise feeds in middle of night if it works for you!
4. feed on one side for more than one feed if one side is particularly bad to let healing happen - it won't affect supply in the long run

Anyhow, enough advice - you'll get enough of this and much will be contradictory. But these things worked for me and I am on your side as I have been through it. good luck - it WILL get easier...

monkeybird

And I should say, if you need emergency healing help tonight and can't get Jelonet and Lansinoh, then you could get away with a chopped up muslin square and vaseline between feeds...

Hi,

I had huge problems brestfeeding initially with sore breasts/nipples and breast pain. It is really difficult to carry on when all you get is pain.

My LO had problems with latching on which I suspect caused my probs but I went through the ? thrush ? mastitis possibilities. One of the things that was a problem was that due to poor weight gain I kept him on the breast as much as possible- I think prolonged suckling contributed considerably!

I used breastshields temporarily which I found very useful and did not put him off the breast longterm.

Anyway basically he had to use a bottle regularly and had few problems going back and forward to breast/EBM from a bottle despite my worries.

Hope it works out for you both.

For pain relief can I suggest BIO-FEM instant relief compress. Recommended to me by BF counsellor. They are little sachets of magic gels impregnated compress that you put on. they are the most cooling, soothing and relieving things i tried. personally gave me much more relief than lansinoh. I had to order mine online (babyconcierge and babylist have them I think). They also say on the packaging that they have stuff to "prevent the growth of micro organisms thus prevents infection" for what thats worth!

I had to breast feed him in the end- he hated the bottle, screamed a lot and wouldn't settle.

Where can I get jelonet? I am not sure which stuff to use on my breasts now. I have been trying the silverettes but I am worried that my breasts leak in them and that my nipples are then sitting in the milk.

I guess I am just going to have to keep asking people to look at my latch until someone can figure out what is wrong.

When he comes out the nipple is like a wedge shape.

Hi again Stefka

You can get Jelonet from most large pharmacies - we got it from a big Boots but I rang a few of their pharmacy depts first to check they had it and the smaller local one didn't. It is normally used for healing burns and they might ask what you want it for.

If you can't get it, as I say, it is basically gauze soaked in vaseline so a couple of layers of home-made medical gauze and a pot of vaseline should work equally well. Here's what I did: layer of lansinoh first (also available from boots or Mothercare and you can leave this on while feeding), then another layer after the feed, then a couple of small squares of Jelonet or homemade alternative - smooth it on so it is in full contact. Forms a moist layer. then a breastpad over the top. The trick is to keep the nipple moist but enclosed and thus sealed off from air etc. You then cut up the big pile of Jelonet into appropriate sized squares, wrap them in foil or sandwich bag in the fridge and change at each feed (wipes any remaining vaseline off your nipple obviously but I didn't worry too much about washing and didn't seem to do any harm)

Have you had any good feeds since last night? Some people recommend keeping a diary (ha - as if you can write with a newborn!) but at least try to record when you get a little bit better eg if pain is a 10 now, aim to reduce it to an 8 or 9 today, then a 7 tomorrow; or aim for one good, relatively painfree feed every other day, then one every day etc... If you keep a record, then at least you can see if you're making progress, even if it isn't completely pain free just yet. And if baby is getting milk, just remember what a fantastic job you're doing. Get your supporters to keep telling you this too - it can work wonders to keep you going in the middle of the night when it's really hard and you want to give up

Let me know how it's going?

monkeybird

OK - the wedge shape sounds like he's compressing it in the wrong place. It is this compression into a point or wedge at the very end of the nipple that is probably causing the damage which probably means the end of your nipple is too far forward in his mouth pressing against the hard palate rather than further back where it rubs only against the soft palate.

It might seem counterintuitive but he probably is higher up/ further over on your nipple (a BFN advisor told me this is the most common issue). Try moving him a fraction more towards your cleavage, away from your armpit. An inch or so can work wonders even if at first it feels totally wrong. I found I was holding the baby's head too firmly and found it easier to help him latch on properly if I put my hand behind the neck and shoulders more, even though he felt awkward and wobbly like this.

Does he tip his head back when he feeds or is it straight or bent forward a little? Does he open his mouth wide like a yawn? Or is he pursing his lips?

None of these things might be your issue though so I'd suggest you keep experimenting with your positioning until you find the right one. You can also try changing the hold while your nipples are healing to relieve the pressure on the sore spots - try under the arm/football hold or him lying on his back and you leaning over him?

He opens his mouth wide. I am a bit confused about the position thing now. The NCT person said to move him a bit over towards my armpits because that is the way my my nipple points and she said it should go in a straight line into his mouth if that makes sense. He tends to tip his head back before I put him on but once he is on I think it is pretty straight - I will look closer next time.

I don't have thrush but I do have some kind of bacteria that requires antibiotics. Steoholocus or something like that. I should get a prescription today. Hopefully that will help a bit too. A health visitor will be out tomorrow so I am hoping that she can watch me feed too and help me more with position etc.

Stefka,

A bit more stuff to think about:

1. most (but not all) health visitors should come with their very own health warning. Most don't know much about the techniques of breastfeeding and they are mistakenly quick to recommend bottles, as a one-off, to 'give you a break' or because they think you don't have enough milk or it is too hard. Before you take advice from them on BF, try asking if they've BF a baby or if they've had specialist training...

...and if not, please go back to the NCT for BF Network people for more help.

The HVs are often too quick to suggest bottles and very slow to help with solving real BF problems. And the problem then is baby often prefers bottles because it's easier, which then might lead to less interest in the breast and then supply might be affected. Many women do successfully introduce bottles as well as BF but many more give up breastfeeding because the introduction of the bottle reduced the supply. So please make an informed decision if she suggests a supplementary bottle.

1. It is confusing and that's because what works for one person doesn't always work for another, and in the end trial and error and your own experience will win out. People on this list will contradict each other and people give advice which supports their own decisions (I will never recommend bottle feeding in the early stages but those who have bottle fed are likely to suggest it - it's vested interests!)

1. On the positioning issue: obviously the NCT person is a specialist and was there in person so may well be right but I was always told by BF counsellors to aim the nipple for the roof of the mouth. This goes hand in hand with the head back, gaping mouth from underneath approach, and means the baby has more of the underside/cleavage side of the nipple's areola in the mouth than the top/armpit side. Your 'straight line' sounds like you might be aiming towards the back of the throat? In which case you might well be too 'high' armpitwards. It might be a very very small amount you need to move him... But it isn't an exact science and as I say, trial and error is best with positioning till it feels OK.

Let us know how you get on?