Baby won’t stay latched on

[lavenderchocolate]

He is three days old, and although I have milk it’s incredibly difficult as he just won’t stay latched on. He works himself into such distress, it’s awful to see. At night he won’t go on at all. I’m now trying to express milk for him but I’m not sure if I’ve messed up. When I first used the breast pump earlier today I got quite a lot out but now not much. I’m guessing I should leave it for a while? I’m so upset, I have milk, I have a baby who clearly wants to breastfeed but we just can’t.

Have you tried the 'rugby ball' position op?
No one at hospital told me about it but when I got home a HV suggested it and it was an absolute life saver!
Put a pillow on the side of you, then lay them under your armpit, feet at your back.
Don't stress op! You're doing great!

Lots of women can't pump much even if there is milk- the best pump is not as effective as a baby. To try and increase pumped volume, lean forwards and try to get the oxytocin flowing- watch funny videos or cute videos, look at pictures of your baby, smell something with their scent on.

Really they should not have discharged you until you were feeding effectively. Tongue tie repair is a simple procedure at this age- keep breastfeeding so they'll snip it. They can cause speech impediments but most NHS trusts won't go near them unless they're causing issues breastfeeding. If you can afford it and experience issues getting it done on the NHS, you can find a private practitioner here:

www.tongue-tie.org.uk/find-a-practitioner/

I was going to say rugby ball hold too and I would put money on it that your baby has a restrictive tongue tie. Midwives aren't specifically trained in spotting it so if it is obvious to them then I'm guessing its quite restrictive. If your baby is slipping off that is a key sign. Their tongue can't keep hold underneath your nipple.

There are private tongue tie practitioners if you wanted to go down that route. There is a tongue tie practitioners website where you can search for registered people.

Most private people can come out or you visit them the next day. Around £100 I think.

Thanks for your answers. Baby has had some expressed breast milk today but I’ve pretty much given up trying to get him to latch until his tongue tie is sorted.

So now my question is about expressing. I’m just not able to keep the pump on one of my breasts. It slips off and I end up covered in milk. What am I doing wrong?

Hold it in position.

Well - I do!

If you're holding it there, I'm not sure how it's slipping off. Just press it into the breast. I do it with my knees, arm or hand.

Well I don’t know why it’s slipping either, that’s clearly why I’m asking on here! FGS!

Can you get help from a lactation consultant (and IBCLC would be best) - it does sound like it might be a positioning and attachment issue, and it’s hard to get sorted by yourself.

For now, try laid back positioning - it means gravity is keeping the baby in the right place, which can help a lot. There’s some good information here on it:
www.laleche.org.uk/positioning-attachment/

Also a little bit of spring or spoon fed expressed milk to take the edge of his hunger might help, before trying to feed. And offering very, very frequently. The more you can lie together and snuggle, the more likely he is to be relaxed enough to try (though I know it’s easier said than done!), so do set up a safe co-sleeping area if you can.

Oh, sorry, cross posted.

On the pump issue, sounds like it’s too small - you may need a larger flange. But again, and IBCLC will be able to tell, otherwise you’ll end up buying a load of different size flanges to see, which could get expensive.

Sometimes a nipple shield helps with latching problems. They don't like to suggest these in hospitals as they think it leads to lazy feeding (what the midwife said to me until and older more experienced midwife slipped me one and it made all the difference). Get the feed started with the nipple shield then slip it off towards the end of the feed. Worked for me and I'd fed for 2.5years with my first. Good luck

@lavenderchocolate which pump?

Thank you. It’s a lansinoh. I don’t know why because it’s over my nipple but it slips off and I end up with milk on me and whatever I happen to be sitting on. I’m sorry if I’m not clear explaining it but I wish I was baffled that I couldn’t breastfeed or express. I know I’m doing something idiotic but I don’t know what. I need to produce 60 ml every three hours and I’m barely getting 10. So every drop that I waste is precious.

Hugs to you OP. I ended up exclusively pumping for my twins who couldn’t latch properly- pretty sure it was tongue tie looking back but we had a lot more pressing issues to deal with - I was pumping anyway as they were tube fed so I kept going.

Firstly, it sounds like you’re using the wrong size flange (funnel bit) if repeatedly slipping off. Over time this will cause trauma - in the meantime if you have a stretchy bra you can spare, cut a cross in each cup as a makeshift hands free pumping bra.

Consumer grade pumps are often a bit crap and often don’t come with different size flanges. I had an Ardo Calypso double pump which was brilliant, not expensive and comes with different sizes. Argos sell them and often have same day delivery on some things or amazon will deliver by Tuesday
www.amazon.co.uk/Ardo-Calypso-Double-Plus-Breastpump/dp/B00JNCTAKW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&s=baby&keywords=ardo+calypso&sprefix=ardo+cal&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1608498828&sr=1-1

I think Ardo do next day delivery.

www.ardobreastpumps.co.uk/shop/products/buy-a-breastpump/pump-up-the-volume/

If you can’t get on with the one you have, I would get another. Good thing about Ardo Calypso is they’re a closed system so you can sell them on when you’re done.

Google the Stanford pumping technique - theres a very dated but very useful video. Combines pumping with breast compression to maximise supply.

If you want to try latching again then google the flipple technique - a way of getting a deeper latch often suggested when there’s a tie. Try some other holds - one of mine could only latch at all if lying on his right hand side, so experiment. Also have a look at rugby ball hold and laid back Feeding position, and try when he starting to get wriggly rather than crying with hunger - you can google hunger cues to show you what the earliest signs are.

Unfortunately lots of tongue tie services are limited during COVID to those cases where the baby is not gaining weight etc. Definitely ask and be assertive but also have a look online to see if anyone can do it privately at your home. I wish I had paid for this in hindsight but I didn’t.

I pumped every 2 hours round the clock at first which is hard going but unfortunately important to keep supply up.

I remember only too well how desperate I felt when mine wouldn’t latch - try not to panic, keep your supply up as best you can, try to get the tongue tie sorted, if you can afford it get some advice from an IBCLC lactation consultant. Just because he can’t latch now doesn’t mean it’s over - I know plenty who’ve pumped initially then managed to establish BFing, hell I even know people who have relactated after stopping completely.

Hang in there, stay as calm as you can, stanford pumping, frequent pumping, different flanges / pump, deep latch, different holds and feed when calm before he gets too hangry.

You can do it :)

And at 3 days I wasn’t making anywhere near 60ml every 3 hours. I went home 48 hours after they were born and I was hand expressing and collecting in 1ml syringes - I remember having about 10ml to take with me on day 3 after expressing through the night!

There’s some useful info here
www.lllc.ca/thursday-tip-newborns-have-small-stomachs

It says milk production increases to 280-570ml per day by day 7. So I wouldn’t be expecting to get 60ml every 3 hours. Pump as much as you can and do it regularly and your supply will go up. However if you feel your pump isn’t working well then try another.

Whatever happens, do not give yourself a hard time - that’s an order. You can only do what you can do. I spent 7 months beating myself up about not producing enough, not being able to latch them properly, not getting their tongue ties done, etc etc etc. It was all a complete waste of my energy and I should have stopped sooner as I was driving myself crazy. Pump as much as you can manage, try latching as much as you can, get the support you can access / afford and know you’ve done your best. No guilt, no regrets - do your best and be proud of it

Thanks very much. I really appreciate your answer.

I haven’t tried to breastfeed him since the midwife asked this morning. He’s had expressed breast milk but he’s on a feeding plan as he lost 12% of his birth weight. So he has 60 ml of formula, breast or a combination of both. Since starting he’s has 20 breast and 40 formula at the hospital (he went in briefly this afternoon) then 60 formula as we’d only just got back and I hadn’t set up my breast pump, then 10 breast milk 50 formula. His next feed is midnight and I’d love to get a bit more breast milk in him.

I’ll be chasing the tongue tie tomorrow even if it means private referral, I just need it sorting!

I’ve attached a photo of the milk I’ve expressed, that’s after 15 minutes at each breast. Does it look ‘normal’? Baby was born Wednesday.

Op you are doing great. I ate a shitload of flapjacks and oat milk and I definitely noticed an increase in supply. Keep pumping and most importantly try and relax. Once I had come to terms with even potentially having to just give up and formula feed I was so much more relaxed and able to express so much more milk. Do lansinoh have a video or anything on their website? Try leaning forward when you pump and make sure all your areola is covered.

Ah I see, mine were on feeding plans too and also had to be topped at first. If he’s lost that proportion of his birth weight they should absolutely be sorting out a tongue tie but I know lots of the services are still disrupted.

Most people who do private tongue tie snips are IBCLC’s with extra training so i would contact some local ones and see if they can support you with that and some advice OJ both latching and pumping / increasing supply.

Try the Stanford technique, for some it’s insanely effective at getting out a lot more milk. With pumping the best way to get more out is double pumping (so both breasts at the same time) - not sure if your pump is a double, again worth considering one (I couldn’t have managed without my double or I’d have been strapped to it all day and night!). How long are you pumping for? I used to do 20 mins even if there was no more milk coming as the stimulation itself can improve supply. There’s also power pumping where you pump for say 10 mins, stop for 10 mins, then pump again for 10 mins to try to simulate cluster feeding.

Does your pump have variable speed and variable suction? Nobody ever told me how you’re supposed to pump and I didn’t find out until weeks in. Assuming you can control yours, you want to start with higher speed and lower suction which simulates the way babies start feeding - rapid sucks to trigger a letdown. Once the milk is coming, slow down the pump but increase the suction, to simulate the long slow sucks babies do while feeding. If the milk flow stops during the 20 minutes, start this process again to hopefully trigger another letdown. And make sure you’re pumping both sides, which is a pain if you only have a single.

Some women can’t pump much and find hand expressing better - I was never very good at it.

Other option is a haakaa silicone pump - put it on one side while you’re pumping or feeding on the other. It applies slight suction and catches the milk that’s released.

Thank you! That’s all really helpful and I love oat milk so will send OH to the supermarket in the morning!

It is a double but I’ve been nervous to use it like that as I struggle to hold it on one breast. I’ll try leaving forward but it’s a bit difficult as I had a c section on Wednesday so am still sore.

Just be careful with your posture - I have longterm upper back problems after 7 months of pumping slouch. Definitely hack an old bra if you can, it makes it so much easier when the bra keeps them basically in position then you just have to hold lightly. But definitely start using it as a double as much you can, and start adding in the breast compressions when you are able.

If you think you’ll keep pumping even if he does latch, worth buying a proper pumping bra / vest. Back then I had to order them from the US but you may be able to get them in the U.K. now. I also wish I’d been able to get Freemies collection cups (they go in your bra so hands free and discreet too - not easy to double pump with dignity 😂). Couldn’t buy in the UK then but maybe you can now - although not compatible with all pumps.

One more thing - heat! Made a massive difference to quantity for me. A friend got me some Lansinoh heat and cold packs for boobs which were amazing. I’d pop them in the microwave and wear for 5 -10 mins before pumping (and my god theyre cosy, ive been tempted to wear in winter now 😂). You could just use a normal microwave heat pack, wheat bag etc or pump just after a shower. If you’re struggling with breast compressions some light massage while pumping helps.

Oh hun you are doing amazingly! I've been there and I know what it's like. You'll get there x

Thanks so much. I’m just desperately trying to express as much as possible so that I can feed him breast milk. I’m not getting anything close to 60 mls though, I’m lucky if I get 20.

Tasks for today are to contact GP about his tongue tie and get this resolved ASAP, and send OH to buy oat milk! Sleep would be nice, somewhere, at some point ...

20 is good at this stage. Pump little and often and it will stimulate your supply.

Thank you - I honestly do appreciate the support I’ve had on here. I love this baby so much, just desperate to do what’s best for him.