17wks, bf, failure to thrive - 'Give him solids' ?

[Pesha]

Its me again

I know I wasnt going to get him weighed but with the paed appt I have still been going to give them an accurate picture of his weight, assuming that the hvs would leave me alone as something is being done. I am only going every 2 weeks though.

Ds2 is now 5.2kg so well into the blue at the bottom of the chart (his length is around the 50th line although I know that's never very accurate). HV is going to try and bring my paed appt forwards as its not till 20th sept.

And as he is now 17 weeks today she wants me to try and give him solids. I told her that I thought solids contain less calories and fat than breastmilk but would fill him up more, so he would feed less and it wouldnt help at all. She said that wasn't always the case and it seems like he's not getting enough calories atm. She suggested giving him just a little bit of something after a feed, hardly anything just a taste really she said. Well if it is only 'just a taste' then what's the point in that anyway?

I weaned my other 2 at this age but really wanted to wait till 6 months this time and try BLW. I thought solids at 17 weeks was against recommendations and a Bad Thing. Is it necessary in these circumstances though? Could it help? And if not then how can I argue my case to the hv in 2 weeks time? Or shall I just tell her I tried him but he wouldnt take it?

For Pesha (if shes still around after all that)
I BF DS2 exclusivly (I know SP) He was on the 60th centile at birth he is now 6 1/2 and on 5th centile where he has been since about 8 weeks old.
We had a lot of fuss with HV and Docs/ Hospital, Peads, dieticeons (OMG SP) he also had other health problems at the time but were not related (I remember an out and out fight with my HV because she didnt agree with the the dieticean and I told her I would ignore her advice not the experts).
I did get to the point where we were seing the specialist every week at the hospital.
I am 5ft nothing and at the time 16stone (V round )I have two very tall very skinny children and a 6ft 8 1/2 stone husband, I belive that the time we all went to the appt together was when they started beliving that I had tall skinny children and wasnt keeping all the food for myself ( LOL).
So what I am trying to say is If YOUR child is happy, has wet and dirty nappys, is interacting with you then go with how you feel, its not going to hurt anyone except the Health Visitor and we all know we should keep a big stick behind the door for when they come to visit!

When you ask for advice from an internet forum such as Mumsnet, you should not be expecting professional advice. This is a website which draws on other mother's experience - professional or personal.

Tiktok, when you say you you are a professional bf counsellor I have to take you at your word, as I have no way of knowing if that is true. The same applies to everyone who posts using whatever experience they claim to have.

I would hope that when asking for advice on a site like this, it is just to get a feel for other parents experiences.

If you are looking for professional medical advice you should go somewhere where you can be sure of the credentials.

That being said, tori is well within her rights to give advice drawn from her own unsubstantiated experience, as are we all.

If you want more than that you should not be asking for help in a open forum.

That is why I can't understand the reactions to tori's posts.

Bambi, you make some good points - mumsnet is at least partly a collection of shared experiences, and we use our judgement when we read them. If someone has a genuine medical concern, then they can get experiences on here, and if they get medical advice as well, they need to check it out with someone in real life.

No one can be 100 per cent sure that people are who they say they are - this is the internet after all I am actually an 85-year-old male plumber, and I have just picked up what I know of breastfeeding from reading a few leaflets at my grandaughter's house....or I could be! I am not a professional breastfeeding counsellor (speaking truthfully here!) but a volunteer breastfeeding counsellor with NCT. My judgement is that Tori is speaking the truth when she says she is a nurse.

Of course Tori can give advice based on her experience as a mother, and while I made the point that some of it was given in a way that was highly likely to offend people ('tree hugger', 'crazy', 'clear problem with supply') , I didn't object to that in principle.

It was when she started to back up what she said by bringing her professional background into it that people got even more annoyed, and I don't understand why you don't see that.

Tori then chose to post a fairly detailed CV, as further back up. She used her professional background as a way of giving further credence to her advice, and that is just not on....because what she was saying was very poor, unhelpful and in some cases plain wrong. There are some posts detailing exactly how, too.

Oli was angry, because of her ow distressing experience with professionals, and she admitted that!

But I was not expecially angry, or rude, but if someone puts a professional's hat on when they give advice, they need to expect to be called on it....just as you would call them on it in real life.

Hope that explains it

good to hear that tiktok, can you come and sort out our drains? What are your rates?
(Oh and while you're here you could take a peek at my sore nipples?)

Pesha - have you ever seen a breastfeeding counsellor just to ensure your latch is as good as it could be?

One of your posts said that feeds last an hour which is quite a long time at this age if your DS is actually sucking all that time. It might be that milk transfer is slow.

On the other hand he could be feeding for as long just because he likes to be there.

Some babies gain weight slowly, no matter what they are fed. A friend of mine stopped BF her first 2 because of slow weight gain and found that it did not improve with formula or solids. Another friend found the same with her DS2. He is still tiny.

I think that frequent weighing is not going to help the situation, it just compounds it. I would want paed review before starting solids TBH.

tori - you will be amazed at what you learn when you take time to absorb it on mumsnet. I am a midwife with vast experience of breastfeeding and I have learned lots from Tiktok and mumsnetters own experiences.

You need to look at your beliefs and challenge your knowledge base. Do not stick fast to what has been ingrained in your professional experiences. As you will see from the many posts on here, one of the biggest challenges to successful breastfeeding is the incorrect advice given out by health professionals.

LOL @ Katy!

bambi, the point is that when tori was calling people crazy tree-huggers she was merely being offensive in herr capacity as a private individual, but that when she started talking about her professional background she did so with the express intention of substantiating her position.
of course we may not be who we say we are on here, but given that impersonating a medical professional is even worse behaviour than just being one who's giving out duff advice, i can't really see how your point does anything other than damn tori's behaviour even further.

mears, a friend of mine had a similar experience. she gave up bf at 4 months because of slow weight gain and pressure to top up with formula. eventually she gave in. just to find that her dd did not gain weight any faster whilst on formula or with subsequent weaning. at nearly 3yo, her dd is tall and thin. guess what, just like her dad.

Tori says
"Is your ds showing signs of hunger? eg lots of bit feeding and poor sleeping pattern? If so do you express to increase milk supply? If yes to that and ds still is not getting enough then surely his health is more important than your pride in the ability to breast feed. "

This is the best bit of common sense I have read, where you are saying
you have to continue breastfeeding whatever, ignore professionals advice etc

Now please tell me who really has the baby and mother's best interests at heart.

The point is that tori is NOT giving her advice as a mother, she's giving it under the guise of being a HCP. If she'd said 'this is what happened to me, these are just my experiences as a MUM' then no one would have a problem. It's the use of her 'professional experience' that is the issue here.

We all accept that we can be given bad advice by other mums, because that is what they have been told by HVs, GPs, etc. That's par for the course.

But to come on a bfing thread where the OP is already being given rubbish advice by her HV and imply you are more than just a mum sharing your experience (see my last post, tiktok's post, kiskidees post and magnolia's post for the egs, I can't be bothered to repeat them all again) is not acceptable.

Sadly, bf advice in RL is poor from the people who are supposed to help, hence the reason why so many paople like me, Pesha and many, many others HAVE to rely on sources such as MN as the health professionals, with all their proper credentials, have failed us.

Not common sense at all, christy, sorry. It's duff advice. 'Bit feeding' - a phrase new to me, and whose meaning I have to infer - combined with poor sleeping are not sure signs of needing more milk; expressing is not the only way to increase a milk supply; the phrase 'pride in your ability to breastfeed' should not be contrasted with a baby's health.....she was dogmatic, poorly informed and unhelpful.

Yes, she does have the mother's and the baby's interests at heart, though.

You;re not saying that I don't, surely?

'if someone puts a professional's hat on when they give advice, they need to expect to be called on it....just as you would call them on it in real life. '

I totally agree with you on that point.

In all professions there are differing opinions and experiences. One persons professional experience may be different from anothers but that doesn't make it less valid.

That is how we form are own judgements - by assessing and researching the different information on offer.

It is impossible to know from a site like this which information is correct and which is not. All advice should be taken at face value.

(I do not doubt your credentials tiktok, by the way; I was just using you as an example )

christywisty - the statement you have repeated there is not an indication that the baby is not getting enough. There is an assumption here that the baby is not gaining weight because he is not getting enough milk. There could be absolutely nothing wrong with supply here. If there is, expressing is not the answer to increasing supply. Ensuring the breast is being emptied effectively will increase supply.

Also to say that is a baby takes 4 oz formula after a breastfeed indicated poor supply is wrong. A baby will often suck formula because it is something different. How often have you been out for a meal and been full after the main course but have been able to eat a dessert? It is a similar thing.

Denying a baby breastmilk in order to increase weight gain is not a health benefit unless it is medically proven to be required (very rare).

Hence why I suggest that there should be a paed review prior to starting solids unnecessarily.

a lot of 4/ 5 / 6 month old babies feed frequently and are not established in a sleep pattern that does not vary...

giving food is not the answer in the vast majority of cases

as a doula, i come here to give opinions, if asked for, and to learn .... rather than take the dogmatic approach that what i have learnt is the be all and end all

we are so lucky on mumsnet to have posters like tiktok and mears who give well founded, evidence and experience based advice to help mums.... and counterbalance poor advice from other HCPs both in RL and here

"It is impossible to know from a site like this which information is correct and which is not. All advice should be taken at face value. "
Yes, but with the benefit of hindsight it's possible to see whether the advice you were given worked for you.
For example when I was in labour I was examined and told that it would be days yet. People on here (I'm fairly sure it was mears) said that with the symptoms I was describing it sounded like I was quite far gone. I called the hospital and was told to come in although I'd probably be sent home again. I gave birth 4 hours later.
From reading advice on here I knew it was normal for a newborn to do nothing but feed feed feed for the first few weeks. Although in this case my MW was excellent and backed this up, the HV who I saw 10 days after birth said I should be feeding him every 4 hours by now. . If I hadn't had the backing of MN and my MW had been less clued up, I might have tried to follow that advice and ended up topping up.

But Bambi, tori is NOT a professional, she has no formal training (from what she writes in her post of 00:16) in bf support or paediatric nursing yet she is very clearly backing up her assertions and advice with her 'professional' opinion. Surely that's not right?

Bambi, you say, 'One persons professional experience may be different from anothers but that doesn't make it less valid. '

Yes, it can make it less valid. I am not asking people to rely on their own experience, which as you say differs a lot. Some HVs (for example) will say in their experience it is impossible for mothers to breastfeed exclusively, or in their experience, breastfed babies are clingy, or in their experience, no one has enough milk for twins....and this very experience may reflect their lack of knowledge and support in helping mothers in these situations.

We don't only rely on experience, but on training and knowledge of the evidence base.

I don't understand your point about taking the info at face value - the 'face value' presented by tori was (I paraphrase) 'this is how you assess poor supply, and I know what I am talking about because I am a nurse' and it was poor stuff. If you are saying it doesn't matter what people say or what advice they give, because after all, this is the internet and we should know any old crap can appear, then I don't agree. If someone spouts rubbish, then I will challenge them on it, because I think it does matter.

The point to my long and rambling post is that you learn to trust certain posters (tiktok, mears, lulumama, hunkermunker) from seeing how their advice has worked for other people and most importantly for you. Any one of them could be posing as what they claim to be and about to dispense some absolutely shocking advice for the fun of it but I personally think it's not very likely

From my personal experience, I have found that there is not a general consensus across the medical profession about what is best for a baby .
I have had contradictory advice regarding bfing, weaning - all sorts of things. However until there is a general consensus I do not want to be denied any information as I want to make my own judgements.

Tiktok, I understand that you want to flag any information you deem to be unhelpful or inaccurate but you are not the authority on bfing.
No one is, as there doesn't seem to be one.

Bambi, you are right - the advice on infant feeding among healthcare professionals is all over the place.

It's quite wrong to say there is no general consensus, though, as if we all had to flounder our way through all this conflicting stuff and make our own mind up. There is evidence-based and well-presented information in the Cochrane database which is on line, and there are some good books which look at the research and come up with guidance. There is DoH material which takes the evidence and translates it to guidance for midwives and health visitors....I could go on.

I have never presented myself as 'the authority' on breastfeeding. But I make no apologies for knowing what I am talking about - as well as understanding that there is always more to learn, and keeping my mind open to it.

Unlike some people.

As far as I am aware tiktok has never claimed to be 'an authority on bf'. She is a bfc who has done her 2/3 years training then all the refresher training/studying the NCT requires to keep practising.

She does not judge people's decisions on when to wean, she does not recommend when people wean, she does not condemn anyone for ffing.

What she does is tell women about the mechanics of bfing, corrects common misconceptions bandied around by others with less training and knowledge, supports women in their struggle to bf if that is what they want and refer women to RL sources of support.

I do not see how any of that can be criticised or seen to be anything other an act of kindness in helping women such as myself who have been let down by the people who are supposed to help us.

Big sloppy kiss for Oli

tiktok's my best friend .

Am slightly worried I'm coming across as mad stalker type though! (I'm not, honestly, just don't like to see you being disparaged when you do so much good on here).

tiktok is a blasted authority on bfing, not just because of her years of training, her passion, her interest, her understanding, her sensitivity and her commitment to keeping an open mind, but just look at the amount of women who she had helped on here over the years.

i've had rotten advice from HVs, doctors, midwives, hospital bfcs and it was only weeks later (and by this time it was too late) when i accessed the top-level care available in my country that i began to get clever answers about my specific problems. i found myself on here long after my bfing had failed and mentioned my symptoms etc to tiktok and she immediately knew what had likely happened to me. would that i had found MN earlier, who knows what might have been different?

we are very lucky to have someone of her level of understanding and training on here, giving up her spare time to help people on MN. Bambi... don't make me start a thankyou Tiktok roll-call thread, she gets embarrassed...